Interview

Bobby Darrow [00:00:38] Yes, Doctor Robert Kerr Darrow.

Christopher Willie [00:00:42] You often go by Bobby, is that correct?

Bobby Darrow [00:00:44] Yes. Everybody calls me Bobby.

Christopher Willie [00:00:46] Do you mind if I call you Bobby?

Bobby Darrow [00:00:47] No. Please do.

Christopher Willie [00:00:48] Thank you. So, do I have permission to record this interview today?

Bobby Darrow [00:00:51] Absolutely.

Christopher Willie [00:00:53] Awesome. So where were you born?

Bobby Darrow [00:00:55] In Shreveport, Louisiana.

Christopher Willie [00:00:57] When?

Bobby Darrow [00:00:59] September 23rd, 1958.

Christopher Willie [00:01:02] Thank you. So, you’re from Shreveport and went Centenary yourself, right?

Bobby Darrow [00:01:06] Yes. I want to point out that I was born in Schumpert Hospital on Market Place, one block from where the Shreveport Little Theater is, where I’ve worked for 27 years, so I didn’t go very far.

Christopher Willie [00:01:20] Wonderful, lots of time in theater.

Bobby Darrow [00:01:22] Yes.

Christopher Willie [00:01:23] In front of us, we have some photos from all of your plays that you’ve been in. Can you tell me some of the impact that theater might have had in like your ability to stand in front of crowds and present?

Bobby Darrow [00:01:36] Well, I’m the son of a Southern Baptist preacher, and for some reason, a lot of us went into theater, or go into theater. You know, sports was not my thing growing up. And I tried to find an identity. And as soon as I found theater, I was home. It was very welcoming for, a little queer boy at the age of 11. And accepting. And it was a safe place for me.

Christopher Willie [00:02:13] So can you tell me a little bit more about growing up in Shreveport? You mentioned being a queer boy there. I must have been very different, you know?

Bobby Darrow [00:02:20] Yeah. I just mentioned my father. I was always wanting to please him, and overly so. So, so anything I did, I just wanted a pat on the back from him. So. And being gay growing up in the South in the ’60s, early ’70s, I, I felt I had to overachieve. And that led me, I think, to becoming, the student council president of C.E. Byrd High School here in Shreveport, which at the time was the largest enrollment, largest school in Louisiana. So, I was very proud of that. But at the same time, the morning after the election, someone had written fag on my front yard with toilet paper. So, there was always that.

Christopher Willie [00:03:27] Do you remember encountering any other LGBT people in Shreveport when you were younger?

Bobby Darrow [00:03:33] Yes. One of my best friends to this day, went to high school with me. But it was also through theater that I met some of my, peers who were LGBTQ+, back in the day. But, and of course, so many we’ve lost to AIDS, even here locally. Yeah.

Christopher Willie [00:03:59] So, like, the theater was kind of a safer place for you all to come together.

Bobby Darrow [00:04:04] Yes, yes. And to legitimately be able to wear makeup (chuckles) and experiment with that, and that side of ourselves and, to lose ourselves in another character and… And not have to be you, and, and that was an escape.

Christopher Willie [00:04:28] In a documentary, Sons of Tennessee Williams, they talk about that often with, like, the balls that they would have for, like, the Krewe of Yuga. Like it gave them that chance to be able to put on makeup and dress up how they wanted and still be socially acceptable.

Bobby Darrow [00:04:40] Express themselves.

Christopher Willie [00:04:42] Yes.

Christopher Willie [00:04:43] That’s a wonderful outlet there.

Bobby Darrow [00:04:44] Yeah.

Christopher Willie [00:04:45] Were there any role models or people who were, like, publicly out for you when you were younger?

Bobby Darrow [00:04:51] Not publicly out necessarily, but I had an art teacher who is still living, and he’s featured in the documentary Closet2Pride, which is about the history of Shreveport, it’s actually Closet2Pride: A Memoir of Shreveport. His name was Edward Allen, and he taught art at Valencia Junior High. Where Caddo Magnet High School is presently. And then he transferred to Byrd, C.E.  Byrd High School when I did, in 1972. So, I had him for six years. And he was very influential in the sense that he was, very organized and, well-manicured and expected you to be so and, he actually had a modeling agency on the side of teaching art. So, and he taught me a lot of finer things. He happens to be African American as well. So, he had a great influence in my life on my life.

Christopher Willie [00:06:08] Oh, that’s wonderful. So today, Centenary has a prevalent queer population and has an Outreach chapter to help foster that queer community. [00:06:17] What was Centenary like on your days on campus? [1.4s]

Bobby Darrow [00:06:21] [00:06:21] Well, there were certainly a lot of homosexuals at Centenary College of Louisiana during my tenure. I [7.1s] didn’t live on campus. I always waited tables, 3 or 4 jobs to live off campus at an apartment. But. It was not, you couldn’t be openly gay on campus, necessarily. I thought I was a lot safer than I was in Marjorie Lyons Playhouse. One night, my boyfriend came up to watch rehearsals, and I wasn’t onstage, and so I was out in the auditorium watching rehearsals, and we were holding hands, you know, down at our sides between us. And we were called out on it. And that surprised me, really. So that was the late 70s, probably.

Christopher Willie [00:07:25] Yeah. So, I understand that you moved to New York when you were a young man. Can you tell me some more about that?

Bobby Darrow [00:07:31] Yeah. I moved almost every summer in between summer semesters, up to New York. The first time was to attend, a summer workshop by Circle in the Square, which is a Broadway theater that offers, has a school as well. While there, I got a job as a night observatory manager at the Empire State Building, and that was totally unexpected. It’s just, it’s the first I had visited New York once with the Centenary Theater group, in my senior year of high school. And, I had already been to the top of the Empire State Building. And this trip, I invited my boyfriend, who had moved up there with me for the summer, to go to the Empire State Building. And I asked them, do you know of any jobs available? The girl behind the counter, and she just screamed and said yes. So, there I was, working at the top of the Empire State Building. It was the summer of 77 because there was a blackout, and I was at the top in charge of all the tourists in the middle of the blackout in Manhattan 17 or 18, whatever I was. And the first thing we did was empty the ice cream machines, they would melt everywhere. So, everyone got free ice creams, and I led them down the stairs, which took over an hour to get down the stairs. And some, some doors were locked, so we had to cross across the floor and then go down another set of stairs. And that kept happening, which wasn’t very safe. But they had already printed, I survived the blackout of 77 on t-shirts by the time I got down and were selling them on the streets. Anyway, I’m just rattling.

Christopher Willie [00:09:35] Go ahead. So, what drew you to, like, New York? What made you want to move there?

Bobby Darrow [00:09:41] Well, that was the center of theater and is, some would argue with that, but certainly commercial theater. You know, I wanted to be a star, of course. And film was not for me, so I thought. So, I was just hoping to get a good education under me and, and, and audition and see what happened.

Christopher Willie[00:10:12] Okay. What was something like the culture shock that you experienced, or was there a culture shock?

Bobby Darrow [00:10:19] The major culture shock was rent. Which they made a movie out of or a musical. The cost of living as it is now is just astronomical, and to survive there, you, you have to work all the time. Once again, [00:10:40] I had about three, three waiter jobs, unemployed actors right on tables. [4.6s] And that’s how I later got into the management of restaurants, food, and beverage. But, yeah, I was always working. There was no time for fun. There was no time to go see any shows. You certainly couldn’t afford that. It was all about trying to make, $1,500 or whatever it was for about a dorm-size room, in the, you know, in the late 70s, early 80s, mid-80s.

Christopher Willie [00:11:16] Were you involved with ACT UP or any other LGBT organizations in New York?

Bobby Darrow [00:11:23] No. As I said, I moved to New York several times. The last time I moved there was shortly after my HIV diagnosis, which at the time was called HTLV3 it didn’t even have a name yet. And. They also called it GRID, Gay Related Immune Deficiency. So, I moved up to New York when I got a job right after my diagnosis. I had just hit rock bottom, losing a job. There was an oil crunch or crash in 1985, and I was managing a very large nightclub in Baton Rouge, and I lost that job. I got a diagnosis within the same month. And that was just when, you know, in May 85, that was early, very early on. You know, we didn’t expect it to be. In a non-port city. We just had heard about it in cases in New York and San Francisco, Houston, but not in Louisiana. So, I was diagnosed, lost my job, and got this job offer in New York to manage a large nightclub there. And on my days off, that nightclub was called Chevy’s Diner and Bar on West 20th between Fifth and Sixth. And on my days off, I volunteered at the [00:13:00] Community Research Initiative on AIDS, and I worked on client files and also served as a receptionist there. That was a grassroots effort by Doctor Joseph Sonnabend. And he, he was doing clinical trials on experimental drugs. [21.3s] There were some similarities to Texas Buyers Club, which is a movie with Matthew McConaughey. It there was a lot of importing of drugs from other countries, experimental drugs. We were just desperate for any kind of therapy or, cure. People were just dying left and right. One day while volunteering there, a gentleman from Shreveport called me, and his name was Chuck Selber. And, Chuck, we first discovered, you know, we were from the same hometown, and I told him that I had plans to move back very soon, and he wanted me to look him up. Well, shortly thereafter, ACT UP Shreveport formed and ACT UP stands for AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, an acronym. There were just about 5 or 7 of us at the first meeting. Actually, I think there was one meeting of three people at Georges Grill without me. And then they decided to form the group. And then the first big meeting or formal meeting was in a home, over in Highland. The Highlands Section neighborhood of Shreveport. I was in charge of. Oh, what was it, anyway? It was medical research. I was on every newsletter that was available, mailing list. And I would just, call those and condense those for the group ACT UP, of the latest treatments, experimental treatments, things that were being imported illegally as treatments. And that was my main role, research. We went to several protest rallies. Am I going too far?

Christopher Willie [00:15:31] All right, you can keep talking.

Bobby Darrow [00:15:34] ACT UP, members attended several national protests. One was at the NIH in Bethesda, Maryland. National Institute of Health. Doctor Fauci, who became very famous in the Covid period. But earlier, Doctor Fauci was a young leader of the NIH, and the protest was mainly against him because so little HIV research was going on at the time. This was a time when the president of the United States, Ronald Reagan, had not mentioned the word HIV or AIDS in his first, I think it was five years, and it wasn’t until his friend Rock Hudson came down, with HIV disease that he, first mentioned it. So, we were protesting at the NIH for, lack of compassion, lack of money, medical research allotted by the Congress, and the fact that there were so few people of color and women in clinical trials. And at that time, AZT was the first drug that had come out, and I was on that at that time. When I was diagnosed, there were no medicines available at all. And I was given six months by three different doctors back in 1985. So that’s a head trip.

Christopher Willie [00:17:08] Can you tell me a little bit more about what it was like to be diagnosed with, you said it was called grit in the beginning?

Bobby Darrow [00:17:15] GRID.

Christopher Willie [00:17:15] GRID.

Bobby Darrow [00:17:15] [00:17:15] Gay Related Immune Deficiency. And that was just for a very short time early on. But you could see how it was isolated to the gay community in healthcare worker’s minds. [14.0s] And of course, it’s always been a heterosexual disease, predominantly, with Africa, with Africa’s numbers. But that’s another subject. What was the question?

Christopher Willie [00:17:45] What was your experience like finding out that you were HIV positive? When they didn’t really even know what it was at that point.

Bobby Darrow [00:17:51] Yeah, but back then it was a death sentence. So, you know, when, when I learned that I was HIV positive. I set my parents down and told them. And, you know, I, of course, went to several doctors and got a six-month diagnosis, life expectancy. And, so I just, I thought I was going to pass away.

Christopher Willie [00:18:25] And that’s what brought you back into Shreveport, right?

Bobby Darrow [00:18:28] Well, I had moved up to New York, as I said, and worked there several years, in that job, running the nightclub as general manager, and decided my time had just run out because that was before, the cocktails that came around in 96, I think. Combination drugs that prolong and save people’s lives. So, people were still dying, and I thought my time was up. So, I wanted to move home and be close to my parents. We were extremely close. And, and I have a brother as well. Or had a brother. My brother Billy was three years older than me and the complete opposite. He was the butch one, the football player, the hunter, and the fisherman, and lived his life out on Caddo Lake in Uncertain, Texas in a small fishing cabin and drove and delivered glass, for over 20 years, to work. So, we loved each other, but we were so opposite. We didn’t have much connection, unfortunately, and he died in 2014.

Christopher Willie [00:19:46] Condolences. How was your family’s response to your AIDS diagnosis, well HIV diagnosis?

Bobby Darrow [00:19:53] Well, could I go back and tell you about coming out?

Christopher Willie [00:19:57] Yeah. Go ahead. No, I would love to hear that.

Bobby Darrow [00:19:59] Well, I was, I had mentioned I had moved to New York with a boyfriend in 77. Well, it was that boyfriend that caused, actually his mother that outed me to my parents. And for a year, my father wouldn’t talk to me. He was a teacher and had become an elementary school teacher here in Shreveport, at Arthur Circle Elementary. And I remember here at Centenary, for my student teaching, and for whatever reason, I won the Student Education Hall of Fame award for the education department here. And it was during that time that my father wasn’t speaking to me because I’d come out as gay. And, and I took the award up to where he was at that school on the playground with his students and showed it to him, and he was very cold and gave me the cold shoulder, but eventually they came around. My father had his master’s degree in divinity. He was well educated, and they educated themselves. They reached out to Flo Selber, Chuck Selber’s mother, and other parents, and just realized that it’s [AIDS] just a disease. And being gay. I’m combining the two stories here. But in both instances, they educated themselves. And it was hard for a Southern Baptist conservative preacher who had preached against homosexuality all of its life, adult life, had to come to terms with having a gay son, so that was hard on us. But after that, [00:21:52]my father dozens of times told me how much he regretted his response because he wrestled me down to the ground and, and I think I said, you know, hit me, hit me. I can’t change, I just, I find beauty in, in everyone. [16.2s] So, and then when I came out to them about, having AIDS, by that time, they were so supportive of me and my accomplishments that it was it was heartbreaking for all of us. And that’s when people were still being so ostracized and even family members were ostracized. So many people with AIDS were kicked out of their homes and had nowhere to go. And that’s one of the reasons we formed the Philadelphia Center. Which is another chapter (laughs).

Christopher Willie [00:22:48] So we’ve mentioned his name a couple of times, Chuck Selber, as I’ve looked into your past a little bit, his name has come up repeatedly. Would you mind talking a little bit about more your relationship with him? And like, I know you met him through the agency that you’re working at, can you just kind of talk on him a little more?

Bobby Darrow [00:23:04] Yeah. Chuck was a professional man who worked for a major talent agency out in California one time. I want to say Morris, Philip Morris, maybe. So he was, known in the entertainment field, from the, you know, business background arena. And he, like so many people who had moved out from their small towns, their hometowns, moved back to die once they were diagnosed. And that was the case with Chuck. Chuck’s family was well known because they owned a string of department stores, Selber’s Brothers. It was kind of replaced with Dillard’s here, but they had fine, fine clothes and, a Jewish family. And there were 3 or 4 brothers that began the business, and it expanded throughout this region. So, Chuck was out, very out when he came back home to Shreveport, and he was also out about, his HIV status. But mostly he was out because nothing was being done. We had this medical research institution here, LSU Hospital and School, and there were grants available. And he was smart enough to look those grants up, what was available, and LSU qualified, yet they were not applying for them. So, he raised hell with some medical professionals here, as did ACT UP when it formed. But, Chuck, I would think that Chuck was certainly one of those first three and one of those very strong local activists. Actually, I had not formally come out publicly in Shreveport until I met Chuck. And when I moved home from New York, he said, “Bobby, you cannot be an effective HIV activist and be in the closet. It’s, it’s just they’re inextricably bound here in America. You know, HIV and AIDS. And you’ve just got to be honest with the public.” So, I was and I kind of became the poster boy for HIV and AIDS in this region. If the press wanted to comment, they would call me, usually after Chuck’s passing. And Chuck, unfortunately only lived a few years after diagnosis.

Christopher Willie [00:25:49] Do you know how you first heard about ACT UP?

Bobby Darrow [00:25:54] It was through, Chuck, I’m sure, because we had met over the phone and talking when I was in New York and he said, look me up. So, I think it was just within a few days that we had that first ACT UP meeting, and it was very early on. And there were a few of us with HIV, well, 6 or 7 of us at least. But there were at least that many allies who were not HIV positive, and they fought tooth and nail with us. Some of the local actions we took. Well, I mentioned the one at the NIH, but we also went to Atlanta, Georgia, and protested at the CDC, Center for Disease Control. But here locally, we marched into the newsroom with Shreveport Times and Journal, and we were able to do that back then, shortly after they added gates (laughs), and you couldn’t access the newsroom directly, but we pamphlet in the newsroom. And we also did that at a medical convention downtown in Riverview Hall, they had set all the plates for their luncheon, and we went around and placed a document. And that document is, at LSU. It’s the tip of the iceberg. There’s an iceberg that shows how many cases. And that’s what we plaster the medical community. Well, you know, that was pretty radical. Yeah. You know.

Christopher Willie [00:27:24] So activism, was it something that you wanted to do, or was it more something that you felt that you like had to do?

Bobby Darrow [00:27:31] It certainly wasn’t something I wanted to do because I was doing it because I had AIDS. I’ll lose this thought if I don’t, just put it in there. When I was diagnosed, as soon as they were able to do a test or knew to do a test, I had three T-cells, which is CD4 cells, and I lived with between 3 and 7 CD4 cells for several decades. And the doctors just call me a miracle because I’ve been fairly healthy all this time.

Christopher Willie [00:28:07] Yeah, because the average is a couple thousand.

Bobby Darrow [00:28:10] Yeah, 1200 is around average. And they told me at that time that it would never you couldn’t regenerate them. They would never rise. But mine slowly have as the medications have become available. I don’t know, I’m around I’m 500 now, I think. Yeah. And undetectable, which is great. And what I mean by that. Because a combination therapy, started around, I hope I’m right here 96. It made the virus undetectable in the body of most people who are on that regimen. And so, you could have sex without being infectious. So, I was celibate for several decades. And. And that was a blessing because I wasn’t going to take a risk and possibly infect someone. So, I know I jutted off from a subject.

Christopher Willie [00:29:08] We’re just kind of talking about activism, how it was something you felt that you were like, you didn’t want to do it, but you had to.

Bobby Darrow [00:29:12] But no, no, I didn’t want to do at all. As I said, [00:29:16] Chuck Selber convinced me I had to be out. I was going to die. I knew I just had days to live, and nothing was being done, part of the government and, I was angry. I was very angry that America had turned its back on me. And. And I expressed that anger. [23.7s]

Christopher Willie [00:29:42] We’ve touched on the civil disobedience that have gone in with the Storm the NIH. So, in Small Town Rage there were many times which you engaged in civil disobedience and protests, such as the Texas Street Bridge. [00:29:53] Can you tell me more about those and what you see as the role of civil disobedience in creating change? [5.5s]

Bobby Darrow [00:30:00] [00:30:00] Well, my justification for it was to bring attention to the protest thereby bringing attention to the issue. [11.2s] And the issue was a lack of compassion, lack of medical research, lack of services for people living with AIDS, oftentimes on the streets, and a lack of education about HIV and its transmission. And also, things that go along with it, multiple diagnoses, drug abuse, for lack of a better word, and mental health issues. So, those were some of the things that we wanted to combat when we formed the Philadelphia Center.

Christopher Willie [00:30:49] So essentially, from what I understand, the people who were in ACT UP kind of became the Philadelphia Center.

Bobby Darrow [00:30:56] Yes. The local doctor in the late 80s, mid-late 80s who was treating HIV patients, who was willing to treat HIV patients in this region, primarily, certainly through a private practice with Doctor Marcus Spurlock, that S P U R L O C K. and he had a family practice, but he also, had a large, very large HIV practice. So, it was a little awkward, you know, one side of the waiting room would be HIV patients. And back then, we were, experiencing wasting syndrome and also Kaposi’s sarcoma, black spots on our skin. And then we would have little grandma and grandpa across the waiting room there for family practice. So, I’m sure that was awkward for Doctor Spurlock’s staff and us, the clients on both sides. So, Doctor Spurlock was smart enough to know and be in the know about the Ryan White Emergency Care Act that was coming down the pike. And Ryan White was a young man who had hemophilia and contracted HIV through Factor 8 Blood Clotting Injectable. That’s derived from hundreds of people’s blood in order to make this Factor 8 concentrate. Also, note that Ryan White was presumably a straight boy of about 13, I think. And it was okay to name the bill after our little straight boy who had HIV. God forbid it be named after Rock Hudson or someone. So, Doctor Spurlock knew about this bill coming down the Ryan White Cares Act, and it was going to provide money nationwide to different cities. You know, of course, with certain stipulations, and inclusion criteria. And he applied for the grant, and he got it. Well, he needed somebody to run the center to provide the services that the grant, provided funds for. And those were direct services, housing, utilities, clothing, and food assistance. And of course, housing was a huge, huge issue. So, he turned to me because of my business background, having been in corporate management, and asked me to become the executive director of the new center. And I did that for several years without pay and got the center on its feet. And at one time, a state health department official said that I shouldn’t be running the center because I had HIV (laughs) and we, had some legal dealings with them. And I came out on top of that, thank goodness. But after that, it was pretty traumatic to go through any kind of legal issues. So, I became executive director emeritus and stepped down and was board president for many years, and I’m still active on that board.

Christopher Willie [00:34:17] In front of us, we have a photo of a mural on the side of the Philadelphia Center. Do you remember anything about that?

Bobby Darrow [00:34:23] Yes. That was painted probably 20 years ago. And I, I want to say there’s a date. Yes. 1990. I cannot believe it’s been that long, but, yeah, it’s a local artist painted, and his name is escaping me, Myron? Someone in 1990 painted that. And it’s very funny, our relationship with the Catholic diocese and church concerning HIV. You know, the Vatican early on and the Catholic Church was very outspoken. You know, they were anti-condoms even in the middle of the health epidemic. But in the long run, the Catholic Church locally was the one who gave us the first office space next to Schumpert. It’s now been torn down to a parking lot. The building had asbestos, but hey, we took it, we didn’t know at the time, so. And then we moved away from Catholic property. But then, this, this one with the mural on the side became available. That’s 2020, Centenary Boulevard. And it was a former dentist building, so it was perfect for our social services. We had so many different little offices, dental, and exam rooms that were at least 12 of them. So, it was ideal at the time. But the building was kind of drab, and the Highland community was and is fighting deterioration. And we wanted to brighten up the community. So, we had this mural painted with, the skyline of Shreveport. There was a contest about, you know, mural designs and this won out.

Christopher Willie [00:36:10] What were some of the differences you saw between how the media presented AIDS and how you saw it in the community?

Bobby Darrow [00:36:21] Well, in the media, it was always what will sell what’s controversial, you know, if it bleeds, it leads. So, the more gruesome or controversial a subject could be. And it didn’t take much for HIV and AIDS in the 80s to be controversial. [00:36:45] It was literally in the paper, 2 or 3 times a week, a letter, an article, you know, it was Covid but only affecting a particular population. [9.5s]

Christopher Willie [00:36:56] So the Philadelphia Center was created to address an issue in access to health care in Shreveport. Do you think that access issue still exists?

Bobby Darrow [00:37:07] I know that there are certain areas of the LGBTQ+ community where access is needed. One is our trans community. They have had access and haven’t had, as I understand it, so that’s still an issue. The Philadelphia Center for decades has wanted a clinic of its own. And the Philadelphia Center has just purchased a property on Creswell Avenue, not far from its current location. It’s at the corner of Hearn and Creswell and right across from Noel Methodist Church. It’s a two-story red brick office building. And we’re about to spend $2 million renovating the interior of it. I think we paid around 700[thousand] for it. But we’ve got to add an elevator and just totally gut the thing. So, we spent two years trying to find a location. We didn’t know the renovations were going to cost us much. But luckily, we’ve had, a long-term grant that we’ve been saving up and is helping us with this renovation. But medically, we hope to build on that same site, a medical clinic, once we move out of the current location at 2020 Centenary. We may start the clinic there. We have a small clinic now, but we would like for it to be a large, full-scale HIV medical clinic that will provide us and a lot of income for the center and, provide our nonprofit with the sustainability that it needs.

Christopher Willie [00:38:47] [00:38:47] So what are some lessons or ideas or experiences from your time with ACT UP and the Philadelphia Center that you don’t want forgotten? [6.3s]

Bobby Darrow [00:38:58] [00:38:58] That there once was, a horrible pandemic and the majority of our population ignored the people with the disease. But there was a group of very caring and loving LGBTQIA+ individuals and allies who cared and did everything in their power to make a difference, to end the disease. [25.2s]

Christopher Willie [00:39:25] As you just mentioned, AIDS pandemic, we also have lived through another pandemic recently. So, can you tell me about how you saw the government’s response to Covid compared to the AIDS pandemic?

Bobby Darrow [00:39:36] Oh, it was night and day, as I said, and the government and the president hadn’t mentioned the word HIV or AIDS for five years. And of course, with Covid, it was almost well, it was even before it arrived on our shores. Preparations were being made. And, you know, the medical community went into high gear and research. And so, it was it was totally obvious that. Very frustrating.

Christopher Willie [00:40:07] Did you notice any similarities in how the information was being presented?

Bobby Darrow [00:40:15] No. No. We had to produce the gay community, and the HIV/ AIDS community had to produce their own newsletters and research letters. In the early days, there were no medical journals with articles because there was no research being done. I mean, I went to Dallas and tried an experimental injectable serum that was developed underground by a researcher here at LSU in Shreveport, but it was administered through a clinic in Dallas. We called it goat juice because they used some fluid from a goat to, I guess, expand the drug inside of a goat and then draw it out. [00:41:02] And anyways, all that to say is we were just desperate. Drugs were coming in from Mexico. I got some in from Germany. And of course, these were all illegal imports at the time. [15.1s] Probably still are. But yeah, I’m sorry. You’re going to have to lead me back.

Christopher Willie [00:41:23] So we’re talking about, like, similarities with information being presented.

Bobby Darrow [00:41:26] Oh, yeah. So, we had to form our own information, our own little community. One of the newsletters was by Sean Strub, who later became a mayor up in the northeast. But he had a newsletter and that has turned into POZ, P O Z, Magazine. He’s retired, but that’s now a glossy magazine. But in the early days, it was just these mimeographed, you know, xeroxed copies of newsletters that were mailed, snail mailed out, pre-internet days. And a lot of those are out at the archives at LSUS. So, it was it was, you know, you had to fight for information. Of course, with Covid, we had it all over the internet. We had it on the TV 24/7. And there were mobile testing units everywhere with HIV. We had one local testing place before the Philadelphia Center, and that was it, the Caddo Parish Health Unit. Yeah.

Christopher Willie [00:42:38] So as someone who has lived through a previous pandemic, do you think that you might have a unique perspective on the Covid pandemic? If so, what are some of your observations about it?

Bobby Darrow [00:42:48] Well, it’s just. Both of them had such division, you know, it took a political aura. With HIV and AIDS. It was the queers and fagots deserved to die, and that’s what our preachers were saying. Some preachers were saying from the pulpit, God’s wrath. And then that whole, conservative Tea Party type of group, much like the MAGA group today, were condemning us, as going to hell and deserving it. And then you had Covid with, conservatives arguing against the mask and that it really wasn’t that dangerous. And you still have those today. You know, it’s going to be a huge continue to be a huge issue in politics for a while longer. But although a million people died here in the U.S. with Covid, it’s still a divisive issue. And now there are a few new strains that have come up recently I just read. So, we’ll see what happens.

Christopher Willie [00:43:59] From what I’ve learned about your journey, it seems that there have been some moments when you wanted to give up, or when it felt like changing the status quo could be someone else’s job. What kept you engaged in this tenuous work?

Bobby Darrow [00:44:11] Well, HIV and AIDS work is, can be overwhelming. And it was for me. I had a lover who had HIV, and when he passed, it was hard for me to deal with AIDS as much as I was 24/7. So, I returned to my first love, the theater, but I didn’t turn my back on the Philadelphia Center. I was either the board president or a board member, very active to this day. But. Once again. This was before the four-drug cocktail that I’m taking now came along. I, I thought my time was limited, so I wanted to, do a little something for myself, and I went back into theater. I didn’t know I was going to stay there 27 more years, but yeah. I felt like when the Philadelphia Center was in a good place, it had already gone through several stages that nonprofits go through. You know, you have a group of well-intentioned, grassroots people that form the organization, and then it gets more organized and formalized. But yeah, at that point, I, I stepped back a good bit.

Christopher Willie [00:45:39] It’s definitely hard work.

Bobby Darrow [00:45:41] Yeah.

Christopher Willie [00:45:42] We’re experiencing a time of extreme polarization and political backlash against progress made by the LGBTQIA+ community. What is your advice to folks who may feel defeated or overwhelmed by the current climate?

Bobby Darrow [00:45:56] Well, living in Louisiana at this time is very, very challenging. In this last election, which was, well, I ran in it, so I should remember who it was in March, in March 2024, I think. Well, I won the Democratic State Central Committee. I won this, district’s representative, but I prior to that, I had run for representative state representative for this area because I wanted a Democrat on the ticket and there wasn’t going to be one, and then almost all Republican districts. But I did it. My short-term memory is just…

Christopher Willie [00:46:38] It was, what is some advice you would give to folks who may feel defeated or overwhelmed?

Bobby Darrow [00:46:43] So, yeah, the status, the status of Louisiana politics. So, in the last election, we did not win a single Democratic seat in a statewide election, a statewide office, no Senate. Well, we had some senators, but as far as governor, lieutenant governor, secretary, treasurer of those positions in state government, all Republican. And the current governor Landry is trying to push a constitutional convention to rewrite the Constitution. He wants all the Sunshine Laws; he does not want his records available to the press or the public. His Republican House and Senate, the legislature is just pushing through all his bills. There are numerous anti-LGBTQ+ bills, anti-trans bills, don’t say gay bills, and bathroom bills dealing with gender, and these are all being adopted and written into law, codified. So, it’s a very challenging time. And that’s why, active in the Democratic Party. Because we have more registered Democrats in the state of Louisiana than we do Republicans. So, it’s a matter of getting out the vote. And I’m going to do my best to do that for HIV issues, LGBTQ+ issues, and any progressive issue, women’s rights or bodily autonomy, those progressive things. Another list came out today that puts Louisiana on the bottom as the worst state. We’ve been seeing this for years, and it deals with health care, our environment, pollution, and education. And I love my home state. I love my hometown, and I hate that this is happening, but it’s because we have conservative, evangelical, Christian, right, MAGA folks running the state. And we have for years. I’ve been called different things over the years, but it’s very frustrating to stay in Louisiana at this time as a progressive person.

Christopher Willie [00:49:05] Oh, I think that is very true because it is a very bleak climate with all those, like anti-gay laws going into place.

Bobby Darrow [00:49:13] And diverting public tax dollars away from public schools and funding private schools.

Christopher Willie [00:49:21] Do you have any advice for, like, people of my generation who are growing up in this climate where it’s just so anti-gay and so much like regressive in a sense, instead of progressive?

Bobby Darrow [00:49:33] [00:49:33] Well, it’s important for people like yourself to speak out. Being visible is one of the most very important things. Don’t let your generation become part of the cult that we have going on now. [13.8s] I think those folks get their news from one source and they’ve been brainwashed by Fox News. So, it’s, it’s just get the word out of what the Democrats are doing, for the environment, for women’s rights, for LGBTQ rights. I just hope I put a lot of faith in your generation that you’re going to turn things around, you know, things and politics and life is cyclical. So, it’s going to swing back eventually. We just need to get the House, Senate, and administration, the president all to be progressive, undo all of the things that they’re doing now.

Christopher Willie [00:50:40] Throughout this conversation, you’ve touched a lot on, like education from when your parents had to educate themselves about gay culture and HIV, how you continue your education, how y’all, ACT UP, how to educate others in the community. So, it seems like education seems to be is very important idea and like activism and social change. Can you maybe touch on that a little more for me?

Bobby Darrow[00:51:00] Well, Doctor Spurlock, who technically founded the Philadelphia Center, I say out of respect to him that I established it. He founded it and said here, but he taught me that you have to attack problems from all sides. The radicals on the outside and the professionals on the inside are working on your behalf for your cause. So, my parents were both educators and once again, I always wanted to please my father. And in his very early days of dementia, I told him I was going to pursue my doctorate at LSUS, and then he broke down crying. That’s a memory I’ll never forget. But [00:51:43] I guess I wanted to over-achieve in that education department because I wanted legitimacy to my words and my voice. [8.1s] I wanted it for the Shreveport Little Theater to add to its legitimacy and just respect. So, education was important to me, and it’s the answer to so many of our problems. Unfortunately, we’re going in the wrong direction in many ways. But education is the answer.

Christopher Willie [00:52:14] So, what did you receive your doctorate in?

Bobby Darrow [00:52:16] In leadership. It’s, it’s a Doctor of Education. When I first read that, a doctorate was going to be offered here. I probably would have taken it had it been in petroleum engineering. You know, I had wanted to pursue a doctorate, but work and my parents’ health and, and different reasons I couldn’t go elsewhere. I didn’t want an online degree. So, when they offered one here, and especially since I was in leadership, I thought it was perfect for me. I had already gone out to LSU and earned a master’s in liberal arts, so I jumped, at it. But I was, and in the guinea pig class, I think there were 27 others enrolled at the beginning. And if I’m not mistaken, seven of us graduated. So, it was an extremely grueling program. Some graduated in four years, I graduated in five. I was given the wrong studies for my research, so I wrote numerous dissertations. But I eventually graduated with a 4.0.

Christopher Willie [00:53:25] Congratulations.

Bobby Darrow [00:53:26] Thank you. And I was an old man. I graduated in 2018. So, six years ago, something like that.

Christopher Willie [00:53:34] That kind of highlights, like education is a lifelong journey. It’s just a constant battle to educate people and yourself to stay up to date on these subjects and topics, especially like HIV, AIDS, Covid. Constantly information was being presented to us all the time. It’s like it took a certain level of discernment to be able to like, know where to go with it. How did you go about discerning some of this early information with like HIV and AIDS when they weren’t facts? It was just here’s what we think.

Bobby Darrow [00:54:06] It seems like we put together a local newsletter for a time, but we just made those national newsletters acceptable to anyone available. And once again, this is pre-internet, so this is via snail mail, but mostly through our ACT UP meetings, which I guess were monthly if not weekly, but we had all that material there and copies of it for people to take. [00:54:37] Oftentimes in those early days, I would take information to the doctor and educate the doctors, and that was part of our mission. [7.9s] Early on with the Philadelphia Center, along with collaborating with a state agency, the program was Delta, which was an acronym, but it was a program to educate nurses and doctors about HIV and AIDS.

Christopher Willie [00:55:03] You just touched on having to use snail mail to, you know, communicate with people today. You know, everything is done there, like group chats and direct messages. It’s very easy to get the word out about something, though, during the time when AIDS was, you know, starting everything. How did you go about safely communicating with people? Because there was a certain risk if someone who wasn’t part of the community found out about something?

Bobby Darrow [00:55:25] It was mostly over the telephone, you know, for any quick communication or direct communication. There were a lot of privacy issues. You know, we would have to find out who we could speak to at that telephone number. May we even call that telephone number? May we mail it to you? We had to get written permission from our clients. And, you know, sometimes we would ACT UP, would mail out something, and it would go to an address, and we would catch hell because, you know, the family maybe didn’t know or just that we dared mail to their address. Yeah. What else?

Christopher Willie [00:56:06] It’s kind of just how you spread information amongst them. You seemed like you had to know somebody to be able to kind of get into it.

Bobby Darrow [00:56:12] Yeah, it was very much of a word of mouth, type of thing. Doctor Spurlock, I’m sure helped us out by disseminating, information about ACT UP, and getting involved. You know, later in my doctoral studies, in my leadership studies, I learned about external and internal factors in organizations or dealing with any subject that you have, your internal players and your external players and how important those were, internal stakeholders, that was the time. So, so it’s very important to have that. ACT UP Shreveport actually still exists, we just don’t meet. But if the situation arose, there’s still a group of people in this town that would get together and ACT UP.

Christopher Willie [00:57:07] So, when I watched Small Town Rage, I was struck by the conversation that your three friends had at George’s Diner. Can you kind of talk a little bit about that moment that you realized it had to be you to make a change?

Bobby Darrow [00:57:21] Well, I was not at that meeting, but at the time, we had 1 or 2 people die in a week here in Shreveport, which was a lot for this, relatively small city. And sometimes we’d have five die in a week. So, it was just a disaster with nothing being done and people being treated horribly who had the disease. And let’s see, one, two… I think all three of the people that met originally had HIV and AIDS. At that first formal meeting, there were probably, you know, a few more. [00:58:02] So we had nothing to lose. So, it didn’t matter what we said, it didn’t matter who we offended because we were dying. We just wanted action. [9.6s] So that was, the frame of mind that we started with is, that we demanded attention to this disease and action by the medical community and the government.

Christopher Willie [00:58:28] Did you ever think that you were going to be the one to take that charge and, like, lead the organizations?

Bobby Darrow [00:58:38] I think it all goes back to wanting to please my father and parents and being an overachiever and always being a leader. Starting with my holding class offices in junior high and high school. Whenever I got a job, unemployed actors wait on tables. I would always end up being the restaurant manager or the general manager of the very large nightclubs and restaurants. And I was a gay man, and I was out. But in those early days, you know, very early 80s. And so, I had to work three times as hard to get to be general manager of these redneck places. One was called Cowboys Club and Restaurant, which was over in Bossier, the largest nightclub in this region. Just very redneck. On a side note, it happened to be called on national radio the herpes capital of the world. That was in the early 80s. A very well-known commentator, radio personality, Paul Harvey, whose by-line was, “And that’s the rest of the story.” He publicized that while I was managing it, but that was pre-AIDS. So, you can see how sexually active our community was right before AIDS. Of course, then AIDS came along. Where did I go off from?

Christopher Willie [01:00:03] It was kind of talk about how you were the one to, like, lead the charge. Like, how you got to that? Did you think it was going to be you?

Bobby Darrow [01:00:10] No. But Doctor Spurlock saw something in me. I was already in theater, and my name was already out there. And my reputation, I think, was out there. And I think it was a fairly good one from a good family. I guess he thought I was a good face to put on it, but he picked me to lead the Philadelphia center, and I always tried to, make a difference.

Christopher Willie [01:00:35] It seems like those leadership roles have come, just been presented to you very often because, like, we have a photo from Storm the NIH of the ACT UP Shreveport group holding the banner, and you were right there in the front of it.

Bobby Darrow [01:00:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was, I’m sure you have the exact year, but it was around 91 maybe.

Christopher Willie [01:00:56] Yeah, I think it was 91 or 90.

Bobby Darrow [01:00:58] And, we were there with thousands of activists, HIV/AIDS activists, and different ACT UP chapters throughout the country. And there were probably, say, 20 different ACT UP chapters. We were just in the middle of this huge crowd just before the protest started, which we started way up a hill, and we marched down to the headquarters of the NIH. And the powers that be came and plucked us out of the crowd and wanted us to lead the march on the NIH, the Storm the NIH, because our ACT UP banner had clearly Shreveport on it. And they wanted to show America that HIV was not only affecting these large cities but that it had come home to roost in Middle America. And back then, CNN was headline news only, and it repeated every hour or every 30 minutes. And they kept showing this clip over and over, all day long of ACT UP on CNN and leading the march. And I just happened to be holding one end of the banner and Chuck Selber is next to me, and Alana Oldham, who has moved back to Shreveport from being in Amsterdam for over 20 years. She’s back here and she’s very active in the community, and that’s Gary Cathey. He was one of the original three at Georgia’s Grill and the first meeting. And I take it back. Gary is not HIV positive but has been extremely active. In fact, he’s the one who outed a US congressman from Shreveport who voted against every single HIV and AIDS bill that came along. He outed him as having been his past lover. And here he was, a closeted gay man voting against every HIV bill. So, he deserved to be outed, in our opinion. But that congressman went on to join the largest church in the area, First Methodist, downtown, First United Methodist, and got married and had children. But then we featured him in Small Town Rage, and his wife divorced him.

Christopher Willie [01:03:17] And wow, I did not know that because I know in Small Town Rage when this section was brought up and talked about how it kind of caused a little bit of a schism in the gay community in Shreveport, because some people were upset that they outed them, other people, you know, said it needed to be done. How did that, like, play into it? Like, is there some point when controversy is needed?

Bobby Darrow [01:03:38] [01:03:38] Yes. A simple answer. Yes. I guess it goes back to every action has a reaction. So, so yeah. If, if wrong is being done, if there’s inequities, unfairness then yes, controversy is, legitimate. [20.0s]

Christopher Willie [01:04:01] Can you tell me about some of the qualities that you think are important for a leader? Because you’ve had many, many leadership roles throughout your life, phenomenal roles that you’ve done. So, what are some of the qualities that you think that you have in yourself, that you’ve seen in others that you’ve worked with?

Bobby Darrow [01:04:18] I guess being a good leader is kind of like being in a marriage. You have to compromise. [01:04:25] You have to be willing to compromise. Not your core, not your foundation, but in so many little things that make up everyday actions and, group or community or business. [13.8s] I’ve found through the years that there are certain personalities that are very toxic that you need to weed out. You can invest years into them to your detriment. But these are people who I don’t know the terms. They’re probably narcissist, but they have to keep the pot stirred, so to speak. They have to have an enemy. That’s why it’s on my mind right now, because I’ve dealt with those types of personalities recently, and you need to weed those out. It’s very important that you form a sense of loyalty within an organization, and that everybody is invested, all the stakeholders, external and internal, that you have a clear mission and goal that you’re commonly working for and to instill in others your passion for your cause. Of course, there are different types of organizations, and businesses, and groups, so you have to adapt your leadership style toward that group. It may be generational, maybe societal, or economical. But you may need to be a servant leader and serve your followers and meet their needs on their level. Or you may it may be a transactional type of leadership where if they give you something, you give them back something in return. Or as with the theater and artist, I found out early on the best way, for me at least, has been a laissez-faire type of leadership where you choose good people, good quality people, and let them run with it and you support them. But it’s pretty much a hands-off, that’s on the artistic side of the theater. And then I wore both hats at the theater. I was also the managing director as well as the artistic director. Very rare, but I have just been replaced by two women. One will have the artistic director title and one will have the managing director title. So yeah, it’s all about sharing your passion.

Christopher Willie [01:06:59] So as you touched on, you talked to me earlier about your retirement, how you’ve finally stepped down. When you look back on your life, did you ever think that you were going to accomplish something so big and long-lasting?

Bobby Darrow [01:07:12] Well, assume you’re talking about the theater.

Christopher Willie [01:07:16] The theater, the Philadelphia center, your many interviews on TV. Just that you’re a local legend in a sense.

Bobby Darrow [01:07:24] Well, I don’t see myself that way. When I was first diagnosed, you know, I was given those six months, so I was still very religious back then. The first thing I did was read the Bible from cover to cover. Then I called Schumpert Hospital and asked if there was anything I could do to volunteer, and that was kind of a dead end, basically. Then not long after, the Philadelphia Center came along. So, I wanted to make a difference with the time that I had left. It was very important that I accomplished something with my life before it ended. So, I guess that’s been the driving force, along with wanting to please my parents.

Christopher Willie [01:08:06] What is some advice you would give to the younger you in Louisiana and then the younger you in New York?

Bobby Darrow [01:08:13] Younger me in New York. I wish I would have stuck it out. Although I did move up there 3 or 4 times trying to make it. I just wish I would have been more patient and given my, possible professional career in New York, more of a chance. And that was pre–AIDS I’m talking. So, talking just about the theater career. As far as Louisiana young me. Oh, God. Part of me wants to say, and you won’t believe this, is that I would have stayed in the closet and pursued a political career. Because I would not have been able to pursue a political career in my generation in Louisiana. But that would have been impossible (chuckles) because I’m just. I’m just out. But yeah, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t go down that path. But, but that certainly was a fork in the road for me to come out or whether pursue, you know, I was student body president Byrd, so I was already headed in that direction. I’d been sent off to these national leadership camps in high school. So that’s not a very good answer, but some insight.

Christopher Willie [01:09:33] What is some advice you would give to young people today that are in the movement?

Bobby Darrow [01:09:40] It’s, it’s an uphill battle if you’re in Louisiana. Certainly. I would advise someone, if they’re really wanting to make a difference, is to hook on to the coattails of somebody you really admire. More than likely, they would welcome your volunteer participation, at least. Be that political or somebody that’s in an organization or company who you want to emulate. Or maybe it would build your resume by having their name and work under them on your resumé? Yeah. Just, you are the company you keep, so watch who you affiliate with and don’t waste your time. Negative people.

Christopher Willie [01:10:25] Couple more questions before you wrap up. Okay. Why do you think it’s important to preserve this history?

Bobby Darrow [01:10:33] I don’t know why. I’ve always been interested in history and the preservation of history. As you know, I’ve put all my records and that of ACT UP Shreveport and Philadelphia Center have started in archives for them. [Shreveport] Little Theater already had an archive started, so I’ve continued that. When I recently made the documentary, Closet2Pride with my, fellow study partner, Doctor David Highland, my thought was, as I mentioned to you earlier, that maybe in 100 years from now, a student will wonder what it was like in 2024. Or, you know, I think the film covers back to the 1950s. What was it like in this area to have AIDS? Gosh, I’m getting tired mentally. To have, LGBTQ records available to them to study. [01:11:30] Yeah. I wanted future generations to know that we had a community here, that we were here. We were queer. Get used to it. That once upon a time, there was an ACT UP Shreveport and a Philadelphia center. And hopefully, those will go away and be forgotten, even let it be forgotten. What a horrible… Horrible time. So, I hope there’s a cure and that and it’ll only be a memory. [39.4s]

Christopher Willie [01:12:11] Mr. Darrow, before we go, is there anything you would like to share, or any final words you would like to leave us with?

Bobby Darrow [01:12:20] Well, I’m honored that you are interviewing me, but [01:12:24] everything I’ve accomplished has been with a community of people, and it’s taken a village to bring about change, and it will always take a group. [9.9s]

Christopher Willie [01:12:36] Thank you for speaking with me. I greatly appreciate the time you took today.

Bobby Darrow [01:12:39] Thank you.