Oral History – Kenneth Mitchell
Interviewer: Michael M Rudis
Kenneth Mitchell: You are welcome.
Michael: We are going to start with your early years and childhood. When and where were you born?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh. In New Orleans, Louisiana.
Michael: And what are your pronouns and what is your gender identity?
Kenneth Mitchell: Pronouns are he, him and gender identity is same gender loving.
Michael: Okay.
Kenneth Mitchell: Or gay.
Michael: Okay and how do you identify in terms of race and ethnicity?
Kenneth Mitchell: African-American.
Michael: And do why your parents chose to name you Kenneth?
Kenneth Mitchell: I do not. I assumed it was the popular name at the time because there are a lot of Kenneth’s that are my age. Whenever, in school there were always at least three of us so I just assumed it was a popular name.
Michael: Okay. And tell me about where you grew up.
Kenneth Mitchell: I am sorry, repeat that question.
Michael: And tell me about where you grew up.
Kenneth Mitchell: We lived uptown in my grandmother’s house on third street in the early 50s and she passed away so, I am sorry that is not correct, my mom passed away first before my grandmother so we eventually moved down to the seventh ward where my paternal aunt and uncle kind of took us in, you know, to help my dad raise us. So, from uptown to the seventh ward, mainly the seventh ward is mainly where I grew up.
Michael: So you said you were mostly raised by your paternal grandparents?
Kenneth Mitchell: My paternal aunt and uncle.
Michael: Oh, aunt and uncle, okay. And did you stay in the same place or did your family move around to a couple different houses when you were a kid?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, we stayed in the same place.
Michael: And what part of the city did you live in?
Kenneth Mitchell: The seventh ward near elysians fields and North Claiborne.
Michael: And what were your parents’ names and what year were they born?
Kenneth Mitchell: My father’s name is Louis J Mitchell’s senior and he was born in 1910. My mother’s name is Laura McGruder Mitchell, she was born in 1912.
Michael: And do where your parents grew up?
Kenneth Mitchell: In New Orleans.
Michael: And how did your parents…
Kenneth Mitchell: I do not know the exact neighborhoods, I think it was the seventh ward two though.
Michael: And how did your parents meet each other?
Kenneth Mitchell: I do not know much about my mom’s side of the family but since we lived in her mom’s house, I am assuming that is the same house she grew up in in. The third ward.
Michael: And how did your parents meet each other?
Kenneth Mitchell: I am not sure. I do not really know.
Michael: And what were your parents’ careers and work like when you were a kid?
Kenneth Mitchell: I remember my mom being a housewife and she passed away when I was five so I do not have much memory about her but as far as I know, she was a housewife. She did not have a job outside of the home and my dad worked as an orderly at the railroad hospital. I think it was called Illinois central railroad hospital.
Michael: And what kind of schooling or education did your parents have?
Kenneth Mitchell: Again, I know very little about my mom but I am assuming less than 12th grade. Dad went to, I think, about seventh or eighth grade.
Michael: And what are the names of your siblings?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, I have half siblings and I will start with them. I will start with the oldest, Mary Louise Mitchell, Comber and I am sorry, what else did you need to know about them?
Michael: Oh, I was just wondering what their names were and what was their date of birth?
Kenneth Mitchell: Mary Louise probably was born in the late 30s, 1930s, late 1930s and then Lewis Mitchell senior right after her and then Addison Mitchell was born right after him and then my dad remarried to my mom. The oldest sibling is Leah Mitchell Brown and she was born in 1946. Michael Mitchell, born in 1947. Laura Marie Mitchell, born in 1948. Peggy Mitchell, born in 1949. Marilyn Mitchell, born in 1950. Marcel Mitchell, born in 1952 and then me, well of course, I am not my own sibling. I am the youngest.
Michael: You are the youngest? As a social worker, do you feel like your personality makes sense as the youngest of 10 kids?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, that is interesting. I am sure that that does have an influence. That is an interesting question. Maybe so but I cannot pinpoint exactly how though. I was pretty much the one that was scared, that may be a factor because I was always the one, I was cared for by mainly seven or six sisters and brothers so I guess it may be like kind of influenced me to be a caring person and sort of like paying it forward.
Michael: So, the care that you got from your siblings, you feel like that was a good model for you for how to care for other people?
Kenneth Mitchell: Right, yeah and it was a good feeling so I think that kind of inspired me to be a caring person.
Michael: And Jordy say, what the name of the woman that your father married after your mom had passed away, what was her name?
Kenneth Mitchell: I am sorry.
Michael: Do you remember the name of the woman that your father married after your mom passed away and do you remember like what year they got married?
Kenneth Mitchell: He did not remarry after my mom passed away.
Michael: Okay. So, in terms of like family supports, did you grow up in a neighborhood where your family lived close by?
Kenneth Mitchell: You mean extended family? I had an aunt that lived nearby, going walking distance and yeah, I did have relatives that lived nearby, aunts and their children and grandchildren.
Michael: For your grandparents on your father’s side, what kind of relationship did you have with your grandparents on his side of the family?
Kenneth Mitchell: They passed away before I had a chance to meet them.
Michael: Okay. And what was your relationship with religion and spirituality growing up?
Kenneth Mitchell: Very religious household, devout Catholics. My aunt, who was my father’s sister, raised us to be very devout Catholics and actually, this was a story I was told when my mom, before she passed away, one of her dying wishes was that we all go to catholic schools so my aunt and dad tried to fulfill that wish and so we did. I mean, we said the rosary almost every night and church every Sunday.
Michael: And in terms of participation in the church, did you take any kind of active role in the Catholic Church as a kid, or was it mostly attendance for services?
Kenneth Mitchell: You know, I took an active role because I served as an ultra-boy for a few years and I think early on, we had a choir and I participated in the choir.
Michael: And what was the church that you went to as a kid?
Kenneth Mitchell: It is called Corpus Christi.
Michael: So, some early identity questions. Do you remember the first time that you realized that you were gay?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes. Did not have a term for it but I knew I was different and I got the message that it was not acceptable.
Michael: About how old were you?
Kenneth Mitchell: I think I was around eight or nine.
Michael: And where did you hear those messages from? Was it from church or family or just a mix of everything?
Kenneth Mitchell: It was from family. Well, I can remember the very first time I got a message that it was not okay. An older sister of mine and I were walking to the grocery store and the corner grocery store and I remember, another young boy moved to the neighborhood and he was walking in the opposite direction and when he passed us, I said, oh I think he is cute, I am going to make friends with him and then I just remember this cold silence from my sister.
Michael: Silence speaks a lot. Do you remember the first time that you realized that you were african-american or do you remember the first time that you realized what that meant to you?
Kenneth Mitchell: That is a good question. It is a good question. I think it was later on in life because you know, my parents and extended family never really talked about it but in hindsight, I do remember some experiences I had with discrimination when we moved to the neighborhood we moved in. You know, a lot of people moved out. You know, at the time, no one said why but you know, like I said in hindsight I just kind of put two and two together.
Michael: As a kid, did you sense what the reason for that was or was it more as an adult looking back at that time putting two and two together?
Kenneth Mitchell: It was more as an adult and looking back at that time.
Michael: And that was a house that you all lived on at on elysians fields?
Kenneth Mitchell: Near Elysian Fields. It was about two blocks from elysians fields.
Michael: What was your early childhood schooling like?
Kenneth Mitchell: Traumatic. Well, initially it was dramatic but I did not, like I guess I do not know, I was just used to being home with my aunt and I have been having her attention. All the other kids were in school and so it was just the two of us but so when I started school, it was really traumatizing because it was me and these hundreds of other kids and you know, I did not like it at all.
Michael: You went to Corpus Christi?
Kenneth Mitchell: Right.
Michael: And as a kid, do you remember like what years you are going to Corpus Christi?
Kenneth Mitchell: That would have been in 1959.
Michael: There were a lot of protests and political action in New Orleans, especially in the 1960s around the desegregation of the public school system in New Orleans. You said a big reason that you got sent to catholic school was that that was something that your mom had always wanted. Did that at all play a role in your family also sending you to private school growing up or do you remember those kinds of conversations happening about the desegregation of the school system when you were a kid?
Kenneth Mitchell: You know, I do not. I was sheltered from that. I did not know it was going on at the time. Now, I know but at the time, my family did not discuss it. We were immersed in the black community, you know, in terms of schooling and church and well we moved to a neighborhood that was integrating but like some friends of mine, we were not the first black people to move into that neighborhood but no one ever really discussed it.
Michael: Do you feel like in a lot of ways you were sheltered from some of those negative racist experiences as a kid, like you said because you were growing up mostly like within the black community in New Orleans?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, I was. I was sheltered as a kid. Like I said, because I do not recall ever discussing it and I knew there was some changes that happened but I did not connect them to racism until I became an adult and some of the stories my older sisters and brothers told me too made me realize what was going on at that time.
Michael: You also said going to Corpus Christi was traumatizing as a kid. Was it because you were around all these strange kids and you are away from your family or were there other things about school too that were harder to adjust to?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, well that is mainly I was away from the family and I just had a different expectation of what school was about. You know, my brother, Marcel and I were really close and we were a year apart so I assume that he and I, at least, were going to be in the same classroom but that did not happen because he was a year older and so you know, it was very upsetting. Like I said, it was just overwhelming with hundreds and hundreds of other kids on the playground. Now in the classroom, that was not too bad but on the playground, it was kind of overwhelming.
Michael: Was there a point in grade school when you felt more adjusted to being in grade school or was it more like in high school when you feel like you got your footing?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, well high school, no definitely not. But grade school, yes. I did eventually gain my footing and then it was really at a time when I developed these close friendships with, it is like four or five of us, four or five classmates and we all ironically turned out to be gay but at the time, you know, we did not have any clue that that is what bound or drew us together but that was when I felt really comfortable with myself.
Michael: I feel like that has to be a common experience for a lot of gay kids where they feel drawn to other gay kids but they might not even necessarily understand or know why.
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, I think so. I think on the other hand too, there is some who are so close by their sexual urges that they go the opposite way and become like bullies but of course we had that, I will share that. I do not know why, I do not know if that was a reason but I guess until you come to terms with yourself, it can manifest in so many different ways.
Michael: What was your time in high school like?
Kenneth Mitchell: Overwhelming also. I went to Saint Augustine high school and it was an all-male school which was something, you know, I actually chose that school because, one of the reasons why I chose that school was because I thought it would help me change, I thought by going to an all-male school, it would help me change my sexual orientation but of course that did not happen but it was just kind of like over stimulating by being around so much testosterone.
Michael: Was there a lot of pressure to feel, like the need to be masculine or a certain kind of manhood, whatever that is. Was there like that additional social pressure to you to sort of match what was around you at the school?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes, that is true. That is a good point. I was not athletic, although I did try out for the track team, that did not work out. So, there was that pressure and Saint Augustine particularly because we had the reputation of being for “punks” in any way. We would notoriously call the purple punks so I think the school had like an image to overcome so the atmosphere was hyper masculine. I caught and I referred to it as macho.
Michael: So what kind of kid were you in high school?
Kenneth Mitchell: I was very quiet, maintained good grades because they had the track system at Saint Augustine, ABCD track so I always stayed out. I stayed in the beach track the whole four years but very quiet, I think I was popular with the with the young ladies though so that kind of gave me, you know, I did date women, young ladies at the time so that gave me some clout, I guess.
Michael: You grew up to be a social worker as an adult. Were there any school social workers at your school that had an impact on you while you were either in grade school or high school?
Kenneth Mitchell: No. There were none. They only had counselors but their focus was mainly academic in high school, nothing in grade school.
Michael: Where did you go to college?
Kenneth Mitchell: Undergrad Dillard University and then graduate school Tulane.
Michael: And what years were you going to Dillard University?
Kenneth Mitchell: I started in 1971, the fall of 1971 and then finished in the spring of 1975.
Michael: Why did you decide to go to Dillard and stay in New Orleans?
Kenneth Mitchell: One of the reasons I chose Dillard was because I wanted to explore or experience a different atmosphere aside from Catholicism and Dillard is a Methodist based university so I guess I was exploring something different and also I have majored in psychologies and that was the only university at the time that I knew of that had a psychology department.
Michael: So, the American psychological association, they removed homosexuality as a psychological disorder in 1973. Was that something that you were thinking about while you were in school, like were you thinking about if you pursued mental health that your sexuality would be something that you would have to hide or were you thinking about that in relation to potentially having clients in the future?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, that was something that intrigued me. I remember going to the library and looking that up and I think earlier you asked about what influenced me to become a social worker, now I think that may have influenced me, you know, the fact that I was gay and at the time it was considered pathological so that got me interested, that was partly why I studied psychology and then other reasons, I always had a curiosity about what made people tick.
Michael: Where did you live while you were in school?
Kenneth Mitchell: In College?
Michael: Yeah, when you were going to Dillard University.
Kenneth Mitchell: I lived at home with family.
Michael: What did college represent for you in terms of your sexuality?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, the experience at Dillard was, I do not know what confluences all came together but that is when I came to accept myself. It was a major struggle but I had support from instructors and professors who I came out to, like on an individual basis and I felt I had my first love experience at Dillard. So, I have found memories of Dillard in terms of my coming out.
Michael: The professors that you came out to, were they in the psychology department?
Kenneth Mitchell: One was in social welfare and the other, Dr. Alcock was in psychology department.
Michael: Was there a conflict with you exploring different parts of your sexuality but also still living at home while you were in college?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes, that is a good question too because I did. I started going out, I started going to some of the gay bars in the French quarters and one of my sisters who I am closest to, observed that. So, she asked. She pulled me aside one day and asked, are you gay and I asked her why was she asking me that and then when she said because you are starting to hang out in the French quarters and so she was the first one I came out to. I guess the fact if I was living on campus, that part of my social life would not have been known but the fact that I was living at home, something that could not, not too easy to hide and I do not lie. I try not to lie anyway.
Michael: That is interesting that even then hanging out in the quarters was implied that you might be gay.
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes. It is known. It has that reputation, at least to my family and I think to a lot of people in the straight world too.
Michael: So much of your formative years overlap with the civil rights movement, the LGBT rights movement, women’s movement, disability rights movement, the anti-war peace movement. What was it like for you being in college at that time and how do you feel like being in school at that time, shaped your politics as an adult?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, at that time, there was the draft and if you did not go to college, you could be drafted and to go into the armed services and Vietnam War was going on at the time so I was fortunate, I guess. I did not go to college to avoid the draft but it was kind of like a byproduct of going to college, not being drafted. And as far as the anti-war protests, the women’s rights, civil rights, I was not very involved in any of those movements.
Michael: Was it later on that you became more politically active?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, my activism was focused on the gay community. Well, I will say gay community because that is what it was called at the time. Now I know it is LGBTQ plus community but I became active that once after I came out as a gay man or same gender loving man then my focus was on making changes there.
Michael: You came out around 1974?
Kenneth Mitchell: Right.
Michael: And what was that coming out process like? Was it picking up the phone and calling people, was it more meeting with people individually like what was that process like for you?
Kenneth Mitchell: It is more like meeting people individually. Starting with the young lady I was dating at the time, we are really good friends now and dealing with that was not easy and falling in love, I guess I was torn between being in love, dating a woman and falling in love with the man. So, that struggle was a major turning point in my life but coming to terms with that actually. So, once I did, as I mentioned an older sister just observed my social hanging out where I was hanging out socially, so I came out to her and then she said you got to come out to everybody and you got to tell everybody else, she did not say coming out so you got to tell everybody else. One by one I told the rest of my family.
Michael: And what were their reactions to it when you told your family that you were gay?
Kenneth Mitchell: Interesting. My three other sisters were pretty accepting. My two brothers had issues with it. My dad was quite accepting and my aunt cried, my aunt who is actually like my mother because like I mentioned my mom died early on but she cried and some friends at Dillard I told, who did not accept it well. But I do not know, it just opened to me. It was like I was exposed to this whole new community that I would not have been exposed to otherwise.
Michael: And what was aunt’s name again?
Kenneth Mitchell: Louise.
Michael: What were some of the gay bars that you liked to go to in the quarter?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, let us see. At the time, there was one called the annex. It is now good friends. I think it is, yeah that is good friend or is it burgundy insane, whatever it is now and there was tucky’s dome on North Claiborne.
Michael: And those were your two favorite hangouts to go to or in terms of the gay bars in the French quarter?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah.
Michael: Do you remember the bars being raided during that time?
Kenneth Mitchell: No, I do not. This was this was probably this was in the 70s, mid 70s, so no. I think that time had come and gone.
Michael: Did you ever participate in gay carnival?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, well kind of. One of my instructors at Dillard would have a big party every year on Mardi Gras Day, that was always fun. But as far as the parade or something like that, no I never joined a crew, a carnival crew or anything.
Michael: Who are some of your gay elders when you first came out? You mentioned some of your professors at Dillard University. Were there any other people in particular that were instrumental to you as a young gay person coming out?
Kenneth Mitchell: Let us see. No, I cannot think of anybody else, just those professors at Dillard. Because I did not have any relatives or anybody who was out.
Michael: Did you know anyone who died in the upstairs lounge fire or what do you remember from that time?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, I just remember reading about it. I am trying to remember what year was that.
Michael: 1973.
Kenneth Mitchell: 73, okay. That is right around the time I came out. Yeah, I do remember reading about it in the newspaper but I did not know anybody who died in that fire.
Michael: You did a lot of work with dignity in New Orleans. What was your involvement with them and do you remember what years you were involved with them?
Kenneth Mitchell: It had to be and I am speculating I am thinking probably around 75-76, I was still very strict catholic but felt a need to educate and enlighten people so we started a chapter here, Dignity New Orleans which I am not sure if you are aware, it serves Catholics who get gay and lesbian Catholics. Well, we would have our mass, we had a priest who served as our moderator and he would conduct mass for us. It is a way of being with like-minded people who are also catholic.
Michael: Do you remember what the name of that priest was?
Kenneth Mitchell: Tom Ellerman. Oh, maybe I should not have said that because I do not think his superiors knew about him. So, let me charge it up, we can continue talking.
Michael: Okay. What was your role with Dignity New Orleans?
Kenneth Mitchell: Actually, I was their first president.
Michael: And where would you all meet? Did you all meet in a church or did you meet somewhere else?
Kenneth Mitchell: We met at Saint Jew on North Rampart until the pope came to town and then when the pope came to the town, now Saint Jew kicked us out.
Michael: Was your group more of a support group or did you all see yourselves as like a religious group or did you see yourselves more as kind of like a political group?
Kenneth Mitchell: I think it was a combination of both because we would address some of the issues in the Catholic Church. I think we wrote letters about discrimination that was going on at the time.
Michael: For you, how did you work through some of the conflict between your identity as a gay man but also your identity as a practicing catholic?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, that that was a major struggle because like I said, I was very strict catholic so it was taboo, Catholicism still is. So, it was like homosexuality was an abomination and I can remember going to confession once and being told I was an adulterer because I had engaged in homosexual activity, did not make any sense but then I just had to decide for myself and not go, just kind of use my personal experience, my knowledge of what I had about spirituality at the time and just coming to terms with it on my own and so at the time I just, and I am saying it like it was it is it was easy but it was a major struggle but I accepted the fact that I am in love with somebody, God is love so what could be wrong with this.
Michael: And being in a relationship at that time, do you think that is what really helped you maybe see what it was like to be a gay person and also see that it was something that was healthy and okay to be as a person?
Kenneth Mitchell: Exactly, yes. Like I said, because I was in love which was a feeling that I do not know why anybody would condemn that and it just awakens so many other aspects of my personality. It was just such a wonderful experience so I just could not see God condemning that. And then that is when I came to terms with myself, my sexuality and my spirituality.
Michael: Are you still a catholic now?
Kenneth Mitchell: No.
Michael: In terms of religion or spirituality, if you feel comfortable answering the question, how do you identify now?
Kenneth Mitchell: Non-denominational.
Michael: You also did some really incredible work with the gay services center.
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, yes. Mike Starks. Oh, mike, he was an earlier role model, like I met him later on but he was the impetus behind that and he was from out of state, I cannot remember where but anyway, he always walked around with calf hands on and the long beard. He was just bigger than life, larger than life but he was interested behind the gay service center on Burgundy Street, like a grassroots.
Michael: And what was your involvement with the gay services center?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, I helped found it and we were not structured like most organizations. We had maybe like a steering committee and then we found the space and then so we would have meetings and then we tried networking with other organizations like MCC.
Michael: And what was MCC?
Kenneth Mitchell: Metropolitan Community Church, well they say their motto is love is for everyone but they cater mainly to the gay community.
Michael: And what years were you involved with the gay services center?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, man. I do not remember exactly. It had to be 77, somewhere between 76 and 79.
Michael: Do you remember the kinds of conversations that were happening at the center?
Kenneth Mitchell: Kind of conversations?
Michael: Yeah, for the center like the different people that would come to the center, like what kind of services were you all providing or do you remember what kind of people were coming to the center at that time?
Kenneth Mitchell: I know it was me, I think, I remember when I was at Tulane at the time and I started Tulane in 75 because I had wanted to do my few placement at two lane and at the time they were not very open to that.
Michael: You wanted to do what at Tulane?
Kenneth Mitchell: I wanted to do my field placement, my internship. The gay service center was not approved so I remember writing a letter asking if I could do my internship there but they were not ready for that.
Michael: What do you think the main reason for it was? Just because it primarily worked with gay people, they did not see it as a legitimate group or what was the reason do you think they gave for not letting that be your field?
Kenneth Mitchell: I am speculating, it was not a well-organized group at the time and I am sure they would go through their protocols to approve an agency to be a field placement so it was not on their approved lists. I do not know if it had anything to do with gay, being a gay service organization or not. I just think it was not, it was because it was not approved.
Michael: Were you at all involved in the newsletter, the closet door?
Kenneth Mitchell: No.
Michael: And what ended up being the reason that the gay services center eventually closed?
Kenneth Mitchell: Let us see. I do not know, to be honest. I am not recalling why it closed because we had a location. I do not know if it was at the time that another service center community center opened up on rampart, I think that might have been a while afterwards though but I cannot remember why it closed.
Michael: The late Stewart butler in particular was a prominent voice among gay men at that time that were pushing the conversation around, including people of trans experience in the larger conversation around gay rights for queer people. Do you remember those conversations and the work that was happening at that time with trans people?
Kenneth Mitchell: With trans people? Not very much with trans people, but I did go to some of the meetings that kind of like, where lag pack was launched. I do not remember any conversations very much about trans people.
Michael: And for lag pack, you were an initial board member with them?
Kenneth Mitchell: Right.
Michael: What was your involvement with lag pack? In what years were you involved with that group?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, I was one of the first board members so the year that it started, I cannot quite remember. Stuart butler, Robert batson, those are the two guys I remember right off who helped me initiate it.
Michael: And what was some of the work that you remember happening in lag pack?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, in Maine, it was political. I think one of the purposes of our goals was to elect gay officials, gay politicians and to get more gay people involved in politics.
Michael: Frank Perez, he recently posted on his blog hunkering down on the website frenchquarterjournal.com, he posted a brochure from lag pack that said, the only safe closet is the voting booth and then it had a line in there, imagine a world where you are free to love, a world where you are free to live and work without fear.
Kenneth Mitchell: All right, yes and we are seeing that now amazingly.
Michael: It is incredible that 2020 is finally federal protections for LGBT people.
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes.
Michael: Did you have any jobs at that time that you were afraid of your orientation being a reason that you would be fired from your job?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes. That was a chronic stressor for me actually because I work for the school system, most of my career and I did not quite know the policy and then I learned that you could not talk about it because you would be considered proselytizing, you could not be out, you could not say very much about being gay because you would be considered proselytizing to the kids. So, it was a struggle for me because I was an activist but I also was working at this job where if you talked about it, you could be fired so or if you even if they found out, well I do not know, I do not know if they found out. It is my understanding, as long as you did not proselytize or what is considered proselytizing, it is okay because there are a lot of gay people in the school system.
Michael: When you were a school social worker, did you have any gay kids that were coming to your office and did you ever have that, do you ever feel a conflict between disclosing your sexual orientation to normalize that for them but also the fear of being out and possibly losing your job?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, but I worked mainly in middle school elementary settings so it was not much of an issue but I do remember occasions when that was a conflict. I would try to support the parents. I am like making referrals sometimes. I remember this one parent, his son was trans, was coming out as a transsexual and it was a struggle for him so I remember making like referrals to pflag and trying to get him some resources but I, as a professional, I never came out personally.
Michael: And what did you like about being a social worker in schools?
Kenneth Mitchell: What did I like about it?
Michael: Yeah.
Kenneth Mitchell: I always considered schools to be the next best place to help people other than the family. First, the family, then the school setting, to me was the next best environment to impact of, to help people so that is why that was kind of like my dream job. So, the only thing I did not like about it as a social worker, we were responsible for attendance and to me, that just never added up. I mean, here you have master level people with tracking down people, students who did not attend school to me, that was just a waste of skills but that is how we got our funding.
Michael: You got two school social worker awards. Well, you got visionary of the year and then you also got school social worker of the year. Is there anything that you would want to share about either of those awards that you got?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, they both were surprises. I did not expect, especially the visionary of the year. I really did not expect that but that was selected, the principal selected that award. Well, she selected person to receive that award. The school I was at, Barbara Jordan, I was chosen to be the visionaire of the year, I am still trying to figure out why but, I was an honor and school social worker of the year, that was based on a number of things. Professionalism, like getting your reports in on time, doing your monthly reports, having good feedback on your evaluations and stuff. So, that was an honor too.
Michael: I want to backtrack a little bit and ask you about your time at Tulane university school of social work?
Kenneth Mitchell: Okay.
Michael: What was part of your decision around going to Tulane for social work?
Kenneth Mitchell: One of my instructors, one of the guys I mentioned, who was kind of an impact on when I came out, he had attended Tulane School of social work. I was planning to go out of state to master’s program in psychology. I was not accepted at the university I wanted to go to and the university where I was accepted, I did not want to go there.
Kenneth Mitchell: So, my professor, Paul Harmon, advised me to check out Tulane School of social work, which is exactly what I wanted to do. Later on, I just realized I really did not want to. I wanted to work directly with kids and families and as a psychologist, I would not and I also wanted to work in a school system. As a school psychologist, I would not have had the opportunity to do that because they mainly do testing.
Michael: Part of what makes social work so distinct from other mental health fields is that it brings together both macro and micro practices to addressing problems and I wonder if that is some of what appealed to you about social work as a field.
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, yeah. That did.
Michael: What was your experience like at Tulane?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, let me see. I started Tulane right after undergrad and I went for, I think a semester dropped out then we went back in 78, something like that and it was a great experience. Well, that first semester where I dropped out was not great. I was not, I really was not ready for graduate school but anyway, so I went back and a year or two later, I was out at Tulane. I wrote, I think you had to write a letter as part of the application process so sharing something personal about yourself so I shared that I was gay and I remember one of the secretaries, I guess she was screening the letters and when she read mine, she kind of called me up and said, do not say that.
Michael: Oh, interesting.
Kenneth Mitchell: She actually was looking out for me but I said no, I want to say that. So, I was accepted and everything and it was nice being out because the school of social work is pretty, most of my fellow students were open-minded and it was kind of intriguing at the time. Professors were supportive. There was one professor who was a now lesbian, oh and I cannot think of her name, shoot. But yeah, it was pretty cool.
Michael: Were there any other professors at that time that you especially connected to?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, that professor, I did. And I wish I remembered her name and that is about it pretty much. The other ones were just, you know, there was no real special connection.
Michael: Were there any social work ideas or theories at that time that made an impression on you or have had a lasting impact on you as a social worker?
Kenneth Mitchell: Theories or?
Michael: Yeah, were there any social work ideas or theories at that time that really appealed to you as a student, that had an impact on you then or might still have an impact on you now?
Kenneth Mitchell: I am trying to think. Theories are ideas. I do remember some ideas of theories that were much more, what was after the APA came out and said it was no longer an illness and the DSM, I think it was, they called it at the time, ego dystonic homosexuality and actually that was really saying if the only way it is an illness is if you cannot come to terms with it, if you cannot accept it then that is what ego dystonic homosexuality was.
Michael: Oh, that is interesting.
Kenneth Mitchell: So, yeah. It was a period of evolution. Theories were changing. You know, there was more research on the subject. I think, the research no longer dealt with people who were struggling but they started doing research on people who were more accepting and you know, did not hate themselves.
Michael: Did you have any culture shock with going to Tulane after attending an HBCU like Dillard University? Was there any culture shock with going to Tulane University after your undergraduate experience?
Kenneth Mitchell: There were some issues. The second time when I re-enrolled, there was some issues with racism. I think that movie birth to the nation was kind of like coming back on the comeback and Tulane wanted to show that movie, I do not know if you are familiar with it but it glorified the clan and made black people look so silly and dumb and stupid. So, we did organize a protest against that and they wound up not showing it.
Michael: Oh, I am sorry. What were you about to say?
Kenneth Mitchell: No, I was trying to think of any other ways it was a culture shock. I cannot right off. Oh, well. I did have an experience because I did live in the dorm for a short period of time and I was out and had a roommate who was okay, he was cool but there was this one guy who was just really homophobic and eventually, I just moved out because he was like kind of threatening.
Michael: Wow. Well, switching gears a little bit and going back. Oh, and I also forgot to ask you, where did your internship end up being while you were at the Tulane school of social work?
Kenneth Mitchell: I was at the Irish channel mental health center. No, oh yeah. And I should recognize Louise Rochelle, she was very supportive. I do not think I would have graduated if it was not for her.
Michael: How so?
Kenneth Mitchell: Because at that last semester, I had lost two relatives, a brother in august and then my father died in December so I was about ready to drop out actually because just how hard to deal with and she called me up and just encouraged me to continue and if it was not for her, I do not think I would have graduated in December of 1980. She was my field instructor.
Michael: Switching gears and going back just a little bit. Did you go to the Anita Bryant protest? What do you remember about that protest?
Kenneth Mitchell: I remember there were like hundreds of us, marching down Rampart Street, chanting and singing and I was just really inspiring those and well, I am trying to think if it was diverse. I think it was pretty diverse if I recall correctly.
Michael: Was that the biggest group of gay people that you had ever seen it together at the same time?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes, that was.
Michael: Did you attend the protest with a group or did you attend on your own?
Kenneth Mitchell: I remember being with some of the people from dignity and some of the people from dignity kind of helped start the gay service center too. So, I think it was at the time when dignity was around when I was involved with dignity. So, I went with some of the other people that were involved in that group.
Michael: New Orleans has to be the biggest small town and the gay community especially. So, I wonder with some of these organizations that you were involved with, was there kind of a recurring cast of people that you would see in these different groups that you would want to mention?
Kenneth Mitchell: Let us see. No. Well, just with the dignity and with the gay service center, there was some overlap there. Yeah, I think yes. The women from dignity have helped start the gay service center.
Michael: You have also had some involvement with the Langston jones society.
Kenneth Mitchell: Yep.
Michael: What was some of the idea behind the group and how did that get started?
Kenneth Mitchell: Langston jones was an offshoot from lag pack. I think at the time, there were hardly African Americans involved in lag packs. So, some of the board members just decided, well we should start a group for African Americans and maybe get that if they have their own group, they will eventually get involved in lag pack. I guess it was an attempt, I do not know if it was an attempt to diversify or to separate but anyway, I think I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say it was an attempt to get more blacks involved in the gay civil rights movement.
Michael: At that time, what do you think the result ended up being? Did it seem like it was segregating the groups or did you feel like it was a way to integrate the LGBT community and bring in more african-american individuals than were involved at that moment?
Kenneth Mitchell: That was the initial purpose but I do not think that actually materialized. I think, we did form our own group but we just kind of stayed separate.
Michael: At that time in New Orleans, why do you think there was such a lack of participation of african-american individuals or maybe another way of asking that question, why do you feel like the racial groups were so separated in the LGBT community at that time?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, at that time and still today, I just think there is just some major distrust and I do not know if racism kind of pre-empted the gay homophobia. I think african-americans were and are struggling so much with racism that sometimes a gay issue is not a non-issue.
Michael: In terms of the white gay male activists at that time, do you think they saw the larger civil rights movement and the rights of people of color as something that was separate and unrelated to gay rights?
Kenneth Mitchell: The guys who were involved in like lag pack and all those other organizations?
Michael: Yes.
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, I do not recall them being sensitive to the struggles of african-americans.
Michael: And when you were involved with the Langston jones society, what did some of your meetings or some of your events, what were they like?
Kenneth Mitchell: We had social gatherings and we did, I am trying to think if we did anything else. I think we connected with other african-american gay groups at the time, like there was the group called the leadership forum and another group called NCBLG, national coalition of black lesbians and gay so I think we just kind of like connected with them and go to their conferences and meetings and stuff.
Michael: What was the workshop that you co-facilitated at celebration?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh my goodness. What was the name of it? It was me and I co-facilitated that with, oh man, I cannot think of his name though. I cannot remember the topic.
Michael: Can you share a little bit more about what celebration was?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, yeah. It was a conference where we mainly consisted of workshops and like a banquet, just like a regular conference with keynote speakers and workshops and a banquet.
Michael: With the coming out support group…
Kenneth Mitchell: I am sorry, Terry Myers and I co-facilitated a workshop at celebration.
Michael: Oh, Terry Myers. Can you share a little bit more about the coming out support group that you were involved with as well?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, yes. Yeah, I am proud of that activity. At the time, it was really struggling for people to come out and so a group of social workers, me and a few other social workers started the coming out support group, Liz Simon and a few other women and we just felt there was a need in the community for that just to support people and to come out or not to come out and then we would meet at the Unitarian universalist church sometimes. It was on Jefferson Avenue at the time. At the time, it is so funny now, there is people, you mentioned the coming out support group now, you say well why would people go to that, but at the time there was a real need for it.
Michael: And what was the age breakdown of the people that were at the support group? Like do you know what was it like a diversity of ages or was it in terms of gender or what was the breakup of the group?
Kenneth Mitchell: It was mainly younger people and a lot were still living with their family members. So, one of the things we would always say was, if you really have to consider the pros and cons, if you have to have a roof over your head and coming out with, you know, take that away then we would not encourage that but we would of course leave it up to the individual but it was the process. I think we used a Virginia satirist model at the time.
Michael: And what was that model called again? Virginia satires?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, yeah. She put together this coming out process model and there were like five or six different stages to coming out but the last one was acceptance, you know, when you come and I cannot remember the other four or five but I just remember the last one being acceptance where you have integrated it into the other aspects of your life.
Michael: What years was the support group going and how did you decide about how long to go with the support group?
Kenneth Mitchell: Three years. Now, right off I cannot remember. Let us see. It was pre-aids days so it had to be in the late 70s, mid to late 70s.
Michael: Do you have any positive memories of your involvement in that support group?
Kenneth Mitchell: I think it helped a lot of people. They had a place to come and just talk about the struggle, first within themselves and then in their families and in community but even if they chose not to come out then they still had a place to come and talk about the struggle that they were going through.
Michael: What was the group KDS incorporated?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, KDS. That stood for Kenneth Dwight and Steve and that was primarily a social group. We would give a party a big. Well, more like a dance every Mardi gras. For many african-americans in the gay community would come from all over the country and just have a good time at a hall that we would rent and sometimes we would have entertainment.
Michael: How big were these groups for the parties that you would have?
Kenneth Mitchell: How big was what? Always hundreds. I would say 300 at the most.
Michael: And with KDS incorporated, it was mostly organization like organizing for social events and social gatherings?
Kenneth Mitchell: Right. And it was kind of like a business venture too because we would raise, we would charge admission and make a profit.
Michael: And with your friends Kenneth, Dwight and Steve, how did you all meet each other? How did you all know each other?
Kenneth Mitchell: Let us see where. I met the Dwight first, probably out in the clubs of somewhere and then I may have met Steve through Dwight. We just were friends and one day we just decided to have a have a Mardi gras dance, of course like most things you start off small but then it just grew.
Michael: And do you remember, like how many years you did the events for?
Kenneth Mitchell: I am going to say maybe four or five years, four or five autographs and then I think what ended it was HIV epidemic though.
Michael: When did you first start to notice what we now call HIV and AIDS?
Kenneth Mitchell: When I first start to notice it?
Michael: Yeah.
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, I can remember the first person that died from it. He just could not figure out what was going on and eventually he died and that was the first person, I remember. Then people started dropping like flies. I think that that may have been probably 80-81 or something like that.
Michael: Like you said 1980, it was the year that you graduated from Tulane, it was also the year that your father had died, it was also the year that your brother had died. Other than your professor that you had in school that was helping you work through that, what helped you get through that time in your life?
Kenneth Mitchell: Let us see. We are family. You know, family and supportive friends. I had some really good friends and I guess, I was in school too. I was learning about grief and the grief process so that kind of helped.
Michael: The AIDS epidemic had a huge impact on the LGBT community not just in people dying but it also changed a lot about the structure of the gay community and how gay people socialized with each other at that time. What differences did you start to notice happening in the gay community around the HIV and AIDS epidemic?
Kenneth Mitchell: I noticed people started going back in the closet and that the Pre-HIV, it was this really blossoming community and it was just this freedom. People had to be themselves to love who you wanted, to sleep with who you wanted to and of course there it was that that is a shame, some elements of shame but I mean there were other social organizations and I remember this other group called fourth world was another social organization but after HIV came on the horizon, it just kind of scared people and I think some people bought into that notion that this is God’s way of punishing you for homosexuality. So, just kind of like scare people.
Michael: Gay people were internalizing that message that HIV and AIDS were a punishment for being gay?
Kenneth Mitchell: I think some people, yeah. To be honest with you, Mike, even today I think some people still think that it is God. It is wrong morally. Well, of course a lot of people do but I mean you see people out and about and enjoying the gay life but I have come to find that in the back of their minds, there is still that struggle with their sexuality and their spirituality because if you ask them if they think it is a sin, a lot of people will still say yes.
Michael: Yeah.
Kenneth Mitchell: And at the time that just kind of, when HIV came on the horizon, it was like that brought that consciousness, they brought it further to a level of consciousness because they may have been suppressing that thought but HIV just kind of brought it to their consciousness.
Michael: The work that you were doing with lag pack earlier around electing more LGBT politicians, pushing for more workplace protections for gay, lesbian and transgender individuals around the HIV and AIDS epidemic, did you notice a constriction of those kinds of conversations or around those kinds of political action at that time?
Kenneth Mitchell: With the lag pack and other organizations?
Michael: Or those larger political movements around LGBT rights.
Kenneth Mitchell: In a way. I think, in a way the HIV kind of galvanized the larger gay community. With getting treatments and support from local and federal government officials, I think it kind of galvanized the community, the larger community that is.
Michael: You had a lot of involvement with NO AIDS task force, now called Crescent Care.
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes.
Michael: As a pre and post-test volunteer, what did your work entail when you were working involved with no age task force?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, I volunteered to give people testing. Well, I was part of their testing program and before you gave them the test, you had to provide them with counseling to let them know what exactly they were getting involved in and then once you did the test, I think you had to wait like two weeks back then for the results. You would schedule them for post-test counseling and depending on what the results were, then you would go one way, one route with counseling you, of course if it was negative then you would kind of educate them on how to stay negative and just kind of see when their last contact was and encourage them if it was within the last six months then they should come, probably need to come back and retest it but if it was positive then you would take a whole different approach.
Michael: Before Crescent Care had their main offices on Elysian Fields and Tulane Avenue, they were in a few other places. What office were you working at that time?
Kenneth Mitchell: There was one office on Frenchman street, that is the office I remember working out.
Michael: We are getting to about an hour and 30 minutes. I have a few more questions about some of the social work jobs that you had, also about men of color New Orleans Incorporated, minority aids, project and some of your more recent work and what you are doing right now. Would you like to do a part two of the interview?
Kenneth Mitchell: Sure. If you could, we take like a five minute break though?
Michael: Oh, yeah. That is good. We could reschedule for another day or we could take a break now, whatever you feel good about.
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, we could just take a five-minute break, that would be good.
Michael: Okay, all right. That sounds good.
Kenneth Mitchell: Okay. So, you want to you want to hang up and then reconnect?
Michael: Yeah, that sounds great.
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, okay.
Michael: All right. Thanks.
Kenneth Mitchell: You are welcome.
Michael: And this concludes the first part of the interview with Mr. Kenneth Mitchell.
Michael: Today is Tuesday, June 30th 2020 and I am Michael M. Rudis with the T Harry Williams Centre for oral history at LSU libraries and special collections. We are partnering with the LGBT plus archives project of Louisiana to conduct oral histories and today I am speaking with Kenneth J Mitchell over the phone. Thank you for being with us today, Kim. We are about to finish part two of our oral history interview.
Kenneth Mitchell: Okay. Glad to be here.
Michael: So, what was the hate crimes project and what was some of the work that you were doing through them?
Kenneth Mitchell: Hate crimes project, that was a program sponsored by the community center, the LGBT community center when it was on Decatur and they had gotten a grant to provide counseling to individuals or groups who were victims of hate crimes and it was not just LGBT related hate crimes, it was any kind of hate crime whether it was based on race or religion or, you know, any kind of victim of hate crime.
Michael: And what kind of additional supports did you offer people who were victims of hate crimes?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, we provide them resources, you know, if they needed somewhere else to stay and then we also provide, which was the part I did. I was like a counselor, I think. We gave them, we provided like five free sessions of counseling to kind of help them get through it.
Michael: And in terms of the people that you were working with or the people that were getting services from the hate crimes project, around when were you doing that work and what did you notice people were coming in for that they were wanting to talk about when they came in for services?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, man. You are asking me dates and it is hard to remember those dates.
Michael: Sorry about that.
Kenneth Mitchell: That is okay. It is not you, it is me. It has been so long ago. When was that? When the community center was on Decatur, you know, I cannot remember the exact dates, probably the late 80s. I would say the late 80s because then I left here. I moved to California in like 89 to work for the minority aids project so I am thinking it was before that.
Michael: And what was some of the work that you were doing with the minority aids project?
Kenneth Mitchell: I was the coordinator for their HIV testing site, similar to what I was doing here with noids task force except I was the coordinator. I helped set up the program for what the minority project started doing testing, pre and post testing.
Michael: And was that work that you were doing in New Orleans?
Kenneth Mitchell: No, that was in Los Angeles.
Michael: Oh, okay. And you were living in Los Angeles at that time?
Kenneth Mitchell: Right.
Michael: And what brought you out to Los Angeles?
Kenneth Mitchell: The job. Gil Gerald, who is one of the founders of the national coalition of black lesbians and gays had taken on the, he was the CEO of the minority aids project in LA. So, he and I had met a few years earlier so he kind of recruited me to come. When he got that position as CEO, he kind of recruited me to come down. And he knew I had done work with the noise task force in terms of testing. They were opening up a testing site. So, you recruited me to come down and work there.
Michael: And then what brought you back to New Orleans?
Kenneth Mitchell: The job ended and my aunt who was like my second mom, her health was failing. So, I came home to kind of like, be there for her. The job I had was, I think the contract was for a year. It was funded for a year. I am not sure if they were refunded or not.
Michael: But when you were working through men of color, New Orleans incorporated, what was some of the work that you were doing with that group?
Kenneth Mitchell: We started out doing, it is like group discussions, partly social but the main thing was that the man talk, which is a bi-monthly discussion group which still continues to today but then we got a grant, I think we got a grant from the US conference of mayors to do HIV or to actually order, you know, to start a program that serviced or catered to men of color or people of color.
Michael: And when you did man talk, was that kind of like a sub kind of support group of men of color incorporated or did it shift into something else?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, it was a component of men of color incorporated.
Michael: At that time, what kinds of discrimination were you seeing, especially particularly with African-American individuals living with HIV and aids?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, the main thing I remember is just the literature brochures and pamphlets and so on and so forth, they were not, you know, they were not in the language or that African-Americans could relate to and so initially the virus started out as in predominantly white gay community but then it shifted and I do not think the community has shifted with the virus it is like the coronavirus now controls what we do, the HIV was in charge so but, you know, so we needed something that African Americans can relate to and not just the literature but also, you know, the face, like I mentioned earlier there is this distrust, I think, between the African-American and the gay, the larger white community. So, I think what needed to happen is people needed to see somebody that looked like them, talking about it and we would go out to the bars, I thought it was very effective, you know. We would go out to the bars and talk to people one to one and that to me made a major impact and, you know, you do that one-to-one, face-to-face kind of interaction and, you know, the US conference of mayors supplied us with a staff and supplies.
Michael: You said some of the literature at that time really was not reaching, especially the African-American community and I wonder what about the literature. Do you have any examples of the way that you felt the literature really was not reaching African-American individuals? Was it like the pictures on the brochure or was it something more specific to like what the language was that was available?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, the pictures and I think, the language could have been more culturally sensitive, you know, some of the dialect where African Americans could relate to, you know, the terms that were unique to the black gay community. But I guess the main thing too was that just having somebody that looked like you.
Michael: Yeah. And when it evolved into man talk, I know that is something that you are still doing right now is that that group now, it sounds like it is a group that is for anyone that is male identifying. How has that group shifted over time into what the group is right now?
Kenneth Mitchell: It started out being specifically for gay black men or, you know, some of us identify as same gender loving and then it evolved into anybody, any male who could be open-minded and respect the rules and the goals of the group. So, that is what it has evolved in to. Not open to anybody, straight gay, black, white, transgender.
Michael: You mentioned earlier in the first part of the oral history that the HIV, aids epidemic galvanized a lot of rights around LGBT people and brought a lot of people together. In what ways did you see that at that time, especially around the 80s and early 90s?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, there were other groups and women, I think, became really supportive. The lesbian community. We were talking last night with the history of pride in New Orleans and one of the women on the panel was talking about how they supported gay men who were just dying. I think they actually had an organization that provided resources so that was one component where I thought the community came together but then there are other groups, you know, like act up and we had our group. Well, the project brotherhood which was under the umbrella of men of color, you know, that came about as a result of HIV.
Michael: Can you say a little bit more about that?
Kenneth Mitchell: What? Project brotherhood?
Michael: Yeah.
Kenneth Mitchell: That was the program that I had mentioned earlier where we did outreach to mainly men of color, where we would go to the bars and when we had gotten that grant from the US conference of mayors did outreach in the bars.
Michael: Was project brotherhood a part of men of color New Orleans?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, that was a program that we have gotten the grant to do.
Michael: The 1991 was the city council non-discrimination ordinance in New Orleans. Do you have any memories from that time or any particular memory specifically from that time?
Kenneth Mitchell: I think Larry Bagneris was part of that. I think he had ran for counseling councilman but then he had gotten, oh no, wait. I would think that was before Larry Bagneris but it was Johnny Jackson and he was on the council of the city council at the time and he was instrumental in helping get that ordinance pass.
Michael: 1994 was the Stonewall 25 march. You were 16 years old.
Kenneth Mitchell: Did you say 1994?
Michael: 1994.
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes. I remember. Yeah, okay. Go ahead. I went to that march.
Michael: You were 16 years old at the time of the police raid and subsequent protests at stonewall, at the original protest. What did the stonewall 25 march mean to you?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, it was educational because I had not heard of stonewall but when I learned about it as a result of the march on Washington so, you know, at 16, I did not hear did not know anything about stonewall but yeah it was just an educational opportunity and also around it was kind of like a way to rally across the country, you know, for LGBT civil rights.
Michael: Were there connections that you made at the rally?
Kenneth Mitchell: Let us see. The rally was just amazing and I mean it was just the LGBT people had just like taken over the city on the trains and you would see people, I mean they were just packed and, you know, people were holding hands and it was just a wonderful experience, I do not know those kinds of experiences kind of just makes you feel you are not alone. I can remember this one young black guy on the train, I guess he was a straight guy and he was just so overwhelmed because with all these gay people.
Michael: It is interesting that seeing people holding hands with something that was really memorable to you. Was that one of the first times outside of the French quarter that you saw large groups of people feeling comfortable, holding hands around straight people?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes. That was like a really empowering experience. And I guess what was empowering was about it was not just in a local or what people might consider the gay ghetto just like, you know, like the French quarter where that little square people were being themselves but this was anywhere on in the city. I mean like I said on the train on the squares, by the monuments. It was like nobody was ashamed.
Michael: Yeah. That had to be a powerful thing to see.
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, right.
Michael: I am going to switch gears just a little bit and ask you some questions about some of your other social work that you have done, some of your other positions and agencies that you worked at.
Kenneth Mitchell: Okay.
Michael: You worked at MA’AT counseling and therapeutic services, is that MAAT or MA’AT?
Kenneth Mitchell: Apostrophe. I probably left the apostrophe but it is called MA’AT.
Michael: What was your time like working there being a social worker and being a practicing social worker?
Kenneth Mitchell: It was a group of us that worked for the school system and a group of guys actually started out as a male support group for school social workers and so we started out meeting just kind of like, supporting each other, meeting just actually to talk but then it evolved into a business where we, I think the five or six of us will form this counseling business and we worked. They rented space, we rented space and got a couple of contracts with child protection and we did domestic abuse too, counseling with guys who, you know, the court’s order to get counseling.
Michael: Where was your office located?
Kenneth Mitchell: Actually, half of my home, they rented like the front part of my house which was at the time, I was doing solo practice which was not going, like apparently it was not going too well. So, when they talked about starting up business, I offered my space. So, they used the front part of my house which was actually my office anyway.
Michael: With my counseling and therapeutic services, were you all operating kind of like under a shared idea about counseling or was it kind of a group of independent counselors, social workers doing their independent work with clients but just sort of meeting in a centralized place or meeting through a centralized agency?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, the name Maya actually is Afrocentric and I cannot remember the country and even what the term means but it is African and so the group was to use kind of like an Afrocentric approach and nobody was bound by that but, you know, we just we just kind of understood that, you know, that is the community we would be serving so we needed to have some sort of sensitivity to the culture.
Michael: And part of that was it wanting more of a focus on affirming black identity and having that as a part of counseling too.
Kenneth Mitchell: Right. Yeah, there was one guy but in particular, I think he actually started the group. He was pretty afro-centric. So, but of course, no one, I was pretty Eurocentric at the time. I really was not that culturally sensitive as I am now.
Michael: How so?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, at the time I was using the medical model, you know, DSM this, DSM that and not really, I guess the term now is woke as I am now to what is going on with African Americans and the history of oppression that could be a factor in many of the issues we are experiencing. There is a term now called PTSD, post-traumatic slavery disorder that some professionals are saying is that, you know, influencing today’s, what is happening today, like the black on black crime and stuff like that.
Michael: The impact of racial trauma or historical trauma and how that can show up in different ways?
Kenneth Mitchell: Right. So, at the time, I was just like DSM, you know, looking up diagnosis in DSM, of course that did not have anything to do with racism, experience of racism but Larry was pretty afro-centric.
Michael: You were also involved in some drug research as well.
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, yeah. Prior to graduate school and then maybe like a year after graduate school, I worked at a methadone clinic doing counseling. They were supposed to take advantage of the counseling but most of the clients would just come, get their method on, go on their way. It was not mandatory but we were available to them.
Michael: The drug research program for that specifically, do you know if that program is still going today?
Kenneth Mitchell: I do not. I certainly do not.
Michael: And then you also worked at DePaul hospital for a little while. What was that work like?
Kenneth Mitchell: That was stressful because I worked on the adult psychiatric unit so, you know, people who were committed against their will were there, some came voluntarily but it was quite a learning experience. I got to see all different kinds of diagnosis.
Kenneth Mitchell: But I just, I do not know, I had lost respect for psychiatrists that are working at that job.
Michael: What was part of that, the medical model and also the conditions that clients were living in?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, it was, I just did not see, you mean in terms of why I lost respect for psychiatrists?
Michael: Yes.
Kenneth Mitchell: They did not do anything. All they did was, you know, prescribe medicine. So, and then they come in there, they would, you know, do rounds and stuff just like I guess other medical doctors and but , you know, just spend a couple of minutes, few minutes with the patient and change the medicine or increase their medicine, decrease their medicine.
Michael: And, in under the back…
Kenneth Mitchell: No therapy.
Michael: Is that kind of what you were able to offer to clients that were in the psychiatric unit?
Kenneth Mitchell: I did. Yeah, we did do groups, but at the time, I worked there, I did not have a… I just had an undergrad degree. So, you could not call it therapy but, you know, we did do groups and we did, you know, we would do actually talk to the patients and then, you know, and then we, at the end of the day, on the end of the shift, we had to, you know, write up our report. So, that is, the doctors, I guess would read that sometimes, I guess though maybe, maybe that they were not too clueless. And there was space, I guess, during the work.
Michael: The hard work of talking to people.
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah.
Michael: What kind of work were you doing with Catholic charities?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, I worked I worked in Saint Charles Parish at their, they had, like, a little counseling center there that served, you know, the little cities around Saint Charles Parish.
Michael: And it…
Kenneth Mitchell: I did, like, individ… individuals, some family, some family counseling, no group work, just mainly individual family work.
Michael: And at what point in your own personal Catholic journey were you when you had that position?
Kenneth Mitchell: I was no longer Catholic. You know, I joined a church called Unity. So… No, I did not, I was just there for the service, it is not big and, you know, the Catholic, I mean it was funded by the Catholic church but it did not have any kind of, you know, affiliation other than the funding. Oh, the…Yeah, my supervisor was a former nun but she was a social worker.
Michael: Okay. Well, I have got two last sections to ask you about. One is to ask you some questions about Katrina and also to ask you some questions about the current work that you are doing right now.
Kenneth Mitchell: Okay.
Michael: Were you in New Orleans during Katrina?
Kenneth Mitchell: I left the day before Katrina hit. I think it hit that Monday and I left that Sunday. Excuse me.
Michael: And where did you stay when you left?
Kenneth Mitchell: I stayed in a hotel in Houston with family and then we moved to a lady’s house who, you know, just kind of this huge house that was a pretty much her, just her and she let us stay there.
Michael: And was that, was she in Houston?
Kenneth Mitchell: Mm-hmm.
Michael: How many years did you end up staying in Houston?
Kenneth Mitchell: It was only a month or two.
Michael: When you returned to New Orleans, where did you live?
Kenneth Mitchell: With one of my sisters across the river, in Gretna.
Michael: Tell me, what was New Orleans like when you came back?
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, it was heartbreaking. I just drove around the city and cried. I was just like, oh my goodness. It was, especially the ninth ward. I think that is when I cried, when I got down to the ninth ward. Just destruction and devastation everywhere. Car and at the time, they had cars, you know, cars were still strewn about the street, desolate and it is amazingly devastating. Then people started, the other thing I remember too was when, you know, people started coming back, you know, the power was out so, everything in your refrigerator spoiled and some people just decided to throw the whole refrigerator away. So, you would see, you would drive around, you see refrigerators lined up down the street. I guess, I do not know, I guess people did not want to worry about cleaning out their refrigerator or they could not be salvaged.
Michael: Do you remember any specific smells from that time?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah. The smell of the barn, you know, the, you know, where the water had, you know, just left odors and…
Michael: Do you recall some of your favorite reopenings from that time?
Kenneth Mitchell: Let us see. Let me think. Reopenings. No, I do not. I do not remember. Not right off the top of my head. I do remember the first time I saw a traffic jam, I said, yes, people are coming back.
Michael: Do you remember where the traffic jam was?
Kenneth Mitchell: It was on Clayborn, Clayborn Avenue.
Michael: Well, this might be the same answer, this might be the same question to the answer you just gave me, but when did things start to feel more like normal again?
Kenneth Mitchell: After Katrina, it took a while. Because… It took a while for people to get money to, you know, renovate or repair their houses, so it took a long time, and it took months. I guess, when I moved back to my house, because my house was, well, very damaged but… that is why I was staying with my sister. So, I moved back to my house maybe a month or so later, a couple of months later. I guess when I moved back to my house because, you know, my neighbor was not too bad, although I did take on water because my house is a little lower than most other people’s house in the neighborhood, but most of my neighbors did not, you know, they did not take on water. So, it was pretty, it was, like, not much different.
Michael: What neighborhood was your house in?
Kenneth Mitchell: It is in Bayou, Saint John.
Michael: And since Katrina, what ways have you noticed that New Orleans has changed or is different than the city was before Katrina?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, you know, I notice people do some magnificent jobs with renovating their houses. You know, the homes I visited and, you know, just maybe driving around is, I just see a lot of upgrades, a lot of new construction, elevations and it is really, you know, improvements. And of course there is, that is in some neighborhoods, others is still pretty bad but…
Michael: Are there any other particular hurricanes that have particularly strong memories for you?
Kenneth Mitchell: Betsy. That was in 65, I think.
Michael: What do you remember from Betsy?
Kenneth Mitchell: I remember, not really experiencing any direct damage myself with relatives from, like, that lived in the lower ninth ward which was totally devastated again. Oh, well, that was the first time that… They lived in the ninth ward and, you know, water was, like, up to their rooftops and stuff, so they actually had to come live with us. I think it was my cousins and then my dad’s first daughter, my dad’s oldest daughter from his first wife and her daughter and husband and actually her mom came to, his first wife came to live with us. So, it was, like, all these people.
Michael: How long do you remember that they lived with you?
Kenneth Mitchell: It was, I think it was, like, six people we took in, two different families. But that was that was kind of fun.
Michael: As a kid, do you think you experienced hurricane Betsy maybe different than you would have remembered it as an adult? Like, as a kid, did you think of it more as ‘oh, all these new people get to live in the house’.
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, right. Yeah, I looked at it like that. I did not look at it as, you know, I never, you know, hurricanes were kind of fun at the time when I was a kid. You know, it was just, it was the, you know, the preparations and we never really had experienced anything devastating.
Kenneth Mitchell: So , you know, although we would do, we will make preparations but, and even actually even when Katrina hit, actually that was the first, you know, that was the first time I ever evacuated from, you know, you know and I was what, it was 15 years ago, I was, like, 40, 45, 40, maybe 50. Yeah, I was I was, like, 50. So, you know, I had never evacuate until I was, like, 50 something. So, but now it is different, now I have experiencing Katrina’s. Whenever hurricane season comes around, I make sure I have a ladder in the house in case I need to climb up in the roof.
Michael: Well. Have you evacuated since Katrina?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, I think the year after Katrina, there was a storm that was supposedly headed to New Orleans, so I evacuated then, the following year. But it did not do much damage here.
Michael: I wanted to ask you a little bit about the work that you did with Noage.
Kenneth Mitchell: Nonage, yeah. Okay.
Michael: Are you still involved with them right now?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes.
Michael: What kind of work are you doing with, through Noage?
Kenneth Mitchell: I am, I serve on the board of directors. And so, I do… And I also coordinate the walking program and I am, like, the liaison on the for AARP’s cultural diversity committee for LGBT elders.
Michael: What is something that you would want younger LGBT people to understand about their elders?
Kenneth Mitchell: We are survivors. You know, I think that the spirit of, I just think of me… I think LGBT people in general are amazing but particularly the elders who, you know, had to go through , you know, what we went through, you know, we went through, we were demonized, we were criminalized, we were pathologized, all of that. You know, the church condemned us, the mental health field. And then people survived all of that and with, it was just something that to… It is like a testament to the spirit and strength of individuals in the community to, you know, to survive that and not only survive but to thrive the hatred that we had to endure. I remember when I came out, I just, I, although, you know, I really loved myself, I assumed everybody hated us because of this, what I… I assumed everybody hated me because of what I experienced through, you know, the stuff I went through in high school, particularly, you know, with some of the guys who were out with, you know, just ostracized and, you know, the jokes and the all the stuff people would say about gay people but I have come to see that a lot of that is just rhetoric.
Kenneth Mitchell: People are, I do not know why people at that time just felt, like, they had to pick on gay people in the pulpits too but I do not, you know, I do not believe that anymore. I used to think that when I when I first came out that, I just assumed that everybody hated us but I have come to see that as mainly just rhetoric, a lot of the stuff people would say because they do not really, I do not think they really mean it, some do of course but…
Michael: Was there a certain time in your life where you were able to distinguish between rhetoric and the beliefs of most people?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yeah, because, you know, I would hear stuff from my own family, you know, about ‘oh, he is a sissy’ and do not run like that, you do not run like that, you run, like a girl or stuff like that, but then when I came out, it was, like, there was, they were just so loving and accepting and, you know, I think when people can put a face to a situation, they are not as mean and hateful.
Michael: I have got only about one more question left. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about or mention that we have not talked about or covered already?
Kenneth Mitchell: I cannot think of anything, not right all. We talked about HIV, we talked about cultural differences. That is pretty much all I can think of.
Michael: Is there anything that you would want to have recorded about you as a person that we have not talked about?
Kenneth Mitchell: I cannot think of anything else.
Michael: Well, the last question I had, there is a little bit of a setup for this question but I promise it is going to go somewhere.
Kenneth Mitchell: Okay.
Michael: So, at the time of this recorded oral history, we are a little over 17 weeks since the first recorded case of Covid-19 in Louisiana on March 9th. In a little over five weeks into renewed protests against racist police violence after police killed Mr. George Floyd in Minneapolis, Minnesota, Brianna Taylor in Louisville, Kentucky. In addition to Ahmaudd Arbery in Glen County, Georgia, Elijah McClain in Aurora, Colorado and locally, Modesto Reyes in addition to many others. The protests have renewed conversations about white supremacy, defunding the police, prison abolition and reparations. As someone who has been on the ground and been an activist for particularly black men, black queer men and the larger LGBT community for 45 years, what is your take on this moment that we are living in right now?
Kenneth Mitchell: Well, at this moment, I am shocked to see, under this administration. Well, let me go back to four, almost four years ago when Donald Trump was elected, I just, when he was elected. And then he started appointing all of these racist, bigoted people in, you know, in his cabinet, like Jeff Sessions and Steve Bannon. You know, I just lost so much hope for all of the progress all minorities had made. You know, I just assumed that, you know, we would regress back to the 60s and 70s, you know, with witch hunts and all of this other stuff that was going on back then and… So, to see what is happening today, I just, you know, with, in spite of Donald Trump, is amazing. You know, it has taught me to like this country more because although, you know, there has been a lot of, you know, wrong that this country has done, I think the process that our forefathers put in place are checks and balances with the supreme court and then you have federal judges ruling this way and then you have congress although, you know, they are weak right now but, you know, all these checks and balances, I think is amazing that we are in this point in time.
Kenneth Mitchell: This feel to see the protests and, you know, how it is bringing all communities together for, you know, it is started by a group of the ‘Black Lives matter’ which was started by two lesbians and supported by , you know, all kinds of communities. So, it is just, the term “intersectionality” comes to mind when, you know, when I think of the, you know, seeing people out there with, I have attended one march. And to see people of all different walks of life out there, it is, to me, it just shows how the step this administration is with the country and the people, you know, just on two different wavelengths.
Michael: Would you say that this…
Kenneth Mitchell: So, I mean, I am inspired. I mean, I guess I am in… It was empowering and I am also inspired.
Michael: Would you say that this is a moment for you of distinguishing between rhetoric and the opinions of people that are around you or maybe opinions of Americans that maybe you did not know had been a reality in the middle of this administration?
Kenneth Mitchell: Yes. Well, I guess, it is the difference between actually hearing it and seeing it. So, you know, maybe, you know, thinking that, you know, that it is there but actually hearing it and seeing it makes a difference. And then I guess, the recent Supreme Court’s decision that is another amazing thing I thought would never happen under Donald Trump’s administration.
Michael: Yeah. That had to be amazing in 2020 to see a fulfillment of something that you were working on back in the 70s.
Kenneth Mitchell: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. It is amazing. It is just so, just, I do not know. I guess, divine. I guess, I do not know. You know, my fate tells me that it is all good, that it is going to work out for the good. This seems to be happening.
Michael: Well, those were all the questions that I had. Do you have any other closing thoughts or anything like that before we end the recording?
Kenneth Mitchell: Not that I can think of.
Michael: Alright, well. Thank you so much Ken. I really appreciate the time that you gave for the oral history project.
Kenneth Mitchell: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you.
Michael: Thank you. And this is the conclusion of part two.
Kenneth Mitchell: Okay.
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